Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Shallan played hide-and-seek with the Ghostbloods and a Herald. This week, she hides from Amaram while Kaladin hides from depression. It’s a cheerful sort of chapter.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 64: Treasures
Point of View: Kaladin, Shallan
Setting: Kholin warcamp: prison & monastery
Symbology: Pattern, Ishar, Shalash
IN WHICH Kaladin is giving in to depression, as he finds himself slipping into the mode of not eating, not caring, not thinking; desperate, he reaches for Stormlight, praying to not go back into the darkness; the Light resists, but finally comes to him; Sylphrena is worried that he’s becoming darker; he says it’s only the cage; she begins to argue, but then goes off to giggle at a little cremling, while Kaladin thinks how childlike she is. Meanwhile Shallan, trying not to panic as Amaram approaches Talenel’s cell, wraps herself in Stormlight, turns herself black, and hides in the darkest corner; as always, she’s angry at the sight of him, but reason tempers her anger; Amaram speaks to Taln, who merely continues his repetiti0ns; Bordin reiterates his earlier report of a cache of Shardblades, which Amaram assumes to be the Honorblades; he tries to get Taln to speak of them again, but his litany remains the same; Bordin acts nervous, and Amaram finally agrees to leave, to seek out this treasure of Blades; Shallan finally breathes, feeling that she is very much out of her depth, but replaces her Veil illusion and returns to Iyatil; as she prepares to leave, she slips Iyatil the paper transcribing Taln’s ramblings and promises a full report later; Iyatil questions who she really is, but Shallan, though thrilled by the respect shown her, says only that she seeks the truth; later, having sent the promised report, she receives a message from Mraize, informing her of her change of status and welcoming her to the Ghostbloods.
Quote of the Week
Shallan breathed out a long, deep breath, slumping down to the floor. “It’s like that sea of spheres.”
“Shallan?” Pattern asked.
“I’ve fallen in,” she said, “and it isn’t that the water is over my head— it’s that the stuff isn’t even water, and I have no idea how to swim in it.”
That is an excellent simile. Oh, what a feeling…
Commentary
First, a quick housekeeping note. Since next Thursday is Christmas Eve, there will be no post that day. The following Thursday is New Year’s Eve, but since the post goes up early and the partying won’t start until later (theoretically), I’m shooting to reread Chapter 65 on December 31st. Send the old year out with a bang, finish strong, all that good stuff.
UPDATE: No post on New Year’s Eve. I’m sorry, but it’s just not going to happen.
To the Reread!! Onward, ho! We start off the chapter in an incredibly cheerful mood, as Kaladin ignores his food and thinks about how much he loves being caged, how this is just as much fun as his slave days, and compares it to adventures in mountain-climbing.
Oh, wait. Never mind. Reset.
Yeah… So here’s Kaladin, demonstrating classic signs of depression: lack of appetite, lack of energy, lack of interest. Combined with the recent discussion of whether Kaladin has an over-inflated estimate of his own importance, I’m now beginning to wonder if he’s bipolar; a list of symptoms for the “manic” aspect of bipolar disorder includes “feeling extremely irritable, aggressive, and “wired”; thinking of yourself as overly important, gifted, or special; making poor judgments, such as with money, relationships, or gambling; engaging in risky behavior or taking more risks than you ordinarily would.” That… sounds pretty much like Kaladin during/after the duel. Well, I don’t recall hearing Brandon mention anything beyond seasonal depression, so he’s probably not intentionally written that way. It was just hard to miss the coincidence.
This short scene with Kaladin leaves me with very mixed feelings, though. One, depression is just not fun. At all. No matter what the cause. Two, his desperate reaching for Stormlight, praying to the Almighty that the darkness would not take him again, hoping that his prayer will be heard despite the lack of someone to write and burn the prayer for him—all this makes me so sad for him. Three, I’m creeped out a little by the way the Stormlight resists him, and then gives in. Four, I’m even more weirded out by the way he thinks of it straining against him, trying to escape once he’s got it. Five, his attitude toward Syl is just bizarre, and her behavior reflects that. And he doesn’t even notice that there’s anything wrong with her behavior. I come out of this scene sad and extremely uncomfortable.
Shallan, despite her own desperate situation, is actually a breath of fresh air after that. How much is quick thinking, and how much just a lucky instinct, I don’t know—but she immediately does the only thing likely to work. This just makes me smile: turn everything about yourself black and stand quietly in the darkest corner. No one expects you to be there, so no one notices you. Slick.
In what I’m coming to see as typical Shallan fashion, reason again informs—or at least tempers—emotion: though Amaram is “still a bastard, of course” (which he is!) she recognizes that he was probably just defending himself when “he” killed Helaran. Apparently there is a certain amount of mostly-true information readily available regarding the event; she’s put together enough information to know that when Helaran left Jah Keved—and left his siblings to their father’s mercies—it was to kill Amaram.
Other quick notes on the Talenel scene:
Amaram is immediately convinced that this is indeed one of the Heralds, and his reaction is to say, “Gavilar, we have done it. We have finally done it.” “It” is presumably their goal of bringing the Heralds back, and I have to wonder just what they did to try to reach their goal. I’m almost certain that nothing they did had anything to do with Taln’s return, though Amaram clearly thinks it did. I rather hope we get to see his reaction when he learns that whatever they did was a complete waste, and Taln has only returned because he finally broke under four and a half millennia of torture.
Bordin has planted the rumor about a cache of Shardblades, making sure it went straight to Amaram’s ears. Amaram, for reasons only he knows, leaps to the conclusion that they must be the Honorblades. I wonder if any of them are Honorblades. I have other questions, too: Was there actually more than one Blade in the stash Dalinar planted there? If so, where did they come from? If not, why was Amaram not more perturbed about there only being one, when there were supposed to be a cache? Was one of them the Blade Taln arrived with at the end of TWoK? Or did Taln actually talk about a cache of Blades? So much we don’t know.
Amaram promises Bordin a “reward” for helping him find this cache of supposed Honorblades. Heh. Clearly he doesn’t understand Bordin, or for that matter anything about the loyalty of Team Kholin, at all…
And then Shallan becomes a full-fledged Ghostblood, except that somehow she never gets around to getting that tattoo done.
Stormwatch
This is the same day as Chapter 63, one day after Kaladin’s last chapter; it is his 11th day in prison, counting the day of the duel.
Sprenspotting
It’s rather agonizing to watch Syl regress—and it’s really, really annoying that Kaladin doesn’t even register the change.
“I’m worried about you.” Syl’s voice. “You’re growing dark.”
Kaladin opened his eyes and finally found her, sitting between two of the bars as if on a swing.
“I’ll be all right,” Kaladin said, letting Stormlight rise from his lips like smoke. “I just need to get out of this cage.”
“It’s worse than that. It’s the darkness … the darkness …” She looked to the side, then giggled suddenly, streaking off to inspect something on the floor. A little cremling that was creeping along the edge of the room. She stood over it, eyes widening at the stark red and violet color of its shell.
Kaladin smiled. She was still a spren. Childlike. The world was a place of wonder to Syl. What would that be like?
Patronizing git.
I want to get angry and smack Kaladin around a bit… but at the same time, I understand all too well the depression, and the way it can twist your perceptions. It seems to me, though, that the difference between Syl two weeks ago and Syl now should be totally obvious; he’s just too self-absorbed to realize it. (And yes, self-absorption is a notable aspect of depression, so don’t tell me I’m being insensitive.)
I’m wondering, now, though: how much does he realize about his effect on her? IIRC, by now they’ve had enough conversations that he knows her increasing “maturity”—or understanding, anyway—is an artifact of their bond. But does he have any real concept that his mindset can affect that bond, and through it affect her mental state? (Does it even make sense to talk about the mental state of a cognitive phenomenon? Heh.)
Also: is “the darkness… the darkness…” referring to the mental/emotional darkness of his depression, or is there something else here, too?
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
Speaking of Syl and the cremling, is there anything unusual about a little cremling with a shell colored “stark red and violet”?
Ars Arcanum
It’s interesting to note that when Kaladin attempts to draw in Stormlight from the lamp, it seems to resist him. I assume that’s a result of the damage his drive for revenge is doing to his bond with Syl… but then why does it suddenly relent? And his reaction… it’s like an addict getting a fix. It’s creepy.
Shallan’s Surgebinding, on the other hand, is totally useful and not at all creepy—unless you think that turning her skin, hair, and clothing all black might have just a little creep factor. Still, it’s useful; she can stand silently in a dark corner and not be seen, plus the Illusion uses up the Stormlight that would normally escape and give her away.
It’s also worth pointing out that she uses Illusion twice in this chapter—to turn black, and to turn back into Veil—and neither time does Taln react like he did previously, when he scared the living daylights out of her. Just guessing, but I suppose that having identified her as “one of Ishar’s Knights,” he has a niche for her, and her Surgebinding is an accepted part of that.
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
There’s not a lot new to say about Iyatil-and-Mraize-the-Worldhoppers, but it’s interesting to note her comments on her own and Mraize’s past experience:
“You caught me in stealth spying upon you, and you can lose me in the streets. This is not easily accomplished. Your clever drawings fascinate Mraize, another near-impossible task, considering all that he has seen. Now what you have done today.”
It’s also interesting to note Shallan’s response:
Shallan felt a thrill. Why should she feel so excited to have the respect of these people? They were murderers.
But storms take her, she had earned that respect.
As always, contemplation of the Ghostbloods brings me back around to wondering what their real purpose is and where they originate. Why would they have been working through a relatively obscure rural Veden lord, and what were they going to use him to accomplish? Why were they trying to kill Jasnah? Who are these people?
Heraldic Symbolism
Ishar and Shalash stand watch over this chapter, for reasons best known to Team Dragonsteel… but my best guess is that Ishar the Priest, pious and guiding, reflects Kaladin’s desperate prayer against the darkness. Shalash is probably there for her little Lightweaver Shallan, with her several uses of Illusion.
Just Sayin’
“Almighty above, ten names, all true.” Well, that sounds pretty emphatic…
Once again, there will be no post next week on Christmas Eve. We’ll be back on the last day of the year with another uneasy visit to the Davar estate, and then we can start the new year on a brighter note.
UPDATE: Scratch that, we’ll visit the Davar estate on January 7. Enjoy some goodies, anyway. By the time I’m done, the Storm Cellar should be well-stocked with Irish cream fudge, peanut brittle, gingerbread, and cookies…
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She wishes you all a very merry Christmas full of blessings and fudge. (Umm… those might be the same thing…)
Would the tattoo ink stay on Shallan’s body? Kaladin could not retain his tattoo.
Alice: IMO, it is not hard to understand Shallan’s reaction to her acceptance into the Ghostbloods. Shallan craves respect from others. She worked hard to get Jasnah’s respect. It was the loss of Jasnah’s respect that hurt Shallan the most when Jasnah initially wanted noting to do with Shallan after Shallan tried to steal the Soulcaster. Shallan believes that the Ghostbloods are a bunch of murderers. Yet, on some level she is glad that they respect her (even if it is only her Veil persona). During her teenage years, Shallan grew up without a mother. After her mother’s death, her father started out afraid of Shallan, then became despondent in general and then became sadistic and autocratic. Shallan’s brothers (at least those who remained) were weak. It is only natural that she craves respect from authority type figures in her life.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Unlike the similes other Sanderson characters like to make. Calamity coming soon!
Spot on about Kaladin’s depression. And total lack of awareness / concern about Syl.
Tattoo. Guessing she never would get the tattoo. Even if not discovered, as Vail, she could just use stormlight to make it part of the overall illusion. She can change her skin tone & hair color, why not a simple tattoo? Suddenly I’m wondering if they have a henna like substance for temporary tattoos. uhm….
Mods: It took 4 minutes of leaving my screen alone before the ability to post a comment re-appeared.
Kaladin and depression… This is a subject I wanted to tackle, but lack the opportunity to do so until we reached this glorious chapter.
I am bothered by it. Well, I am not bothered by the fact it exist, but I am bothered by the fact it seems to appear only when it is convenient to the plot line. In this chapter, Kaladin is imprisoned. He believes the punishment is unjust (whether it is or not is irrelevant, what matters here is what Kaladin thinks) and it involves being stuck in a small window less room. He has been there for 11 days without any other distraction than counting the cracks on the ceiling (if we exclude Syl). He is feeling depressed… but wouldn’t anyone in his predicament feel depressed? He rightly feels bummed, depressed to a point where he stops eating as no one seems to care, but wouldn’t most people react the same way? Even if they aren’t clinically depressed? I mean Kaladin’s predicament is horribly grating: most would loose their mind.
I am thus bothered Kaladin gets the label “clinical depression” stamped on his forehead when the only times he actually behaves “depressed” are when things are seriously not going his way. Each time he actually needs to take solid action, the depresion mysteriously disappears only to reappear when he meets a hard to process obstacles such as being put into prison…
If he were clinically depressed, then shouldn’t it manifest itself at any possible times including times when he is needed to “protect” someone? Shouldn’t it affect his ability to just care even when it is inconvenient? Shouldn’t it last for more than a few days at a time? Shouldn’t it be more persistant, continuous as opposed to sporadic?
Am I the only one who is puzzled by the “Kaladin is clinically depressed” canon? I understand the season depressive diagnostic, but the clinical depression one?
RE: “It seems to me, though, that the difference between Syl two weeks ago and Syl now should be totally obvious; he’s just too self-absorbed to realize it.”
Well, we are just seeing the differences a few pages apart. Syl has regressed right in front of Kaladin for the last two weeks, a bit at a time. Plus, she is a bit flighty at the best of times. So, I guess it might be understandable?
RE: The Stormlight pulling against him
I would think this is his bond with Syl deteriorating. Its the only reason he can absorb it at all.
@3 Gepeto, there’s a kind of depression that’s more episodic than continuous. It may also be a difference in Kaladin’s ability to cope. It’s a lot easier to fake being okay when things are going well.
I also have the impression that Kaladin spends good chunks of both books being more or less depressed but that just might be because those sections over shadow Kaladin’s other chapters.
@3: All I know is that depictions of Kaladin in TWoK sound not unlike descriptions I’ve heard from friends with this type of issue. Alice’s mention of bipolar disorder matches what I was thinking about for the longest time.
Kal clearly has some form of depressive disorder, and it predates the Roshone incident. If SAD is canon, that’s fine, but without going and rereading TWoK to make a better point, I do recall some actions by Kaladin that put me in mind of when my bipolar buddy is on a manic swing, not just the depressive symptoms that clearly came out every time the Weeping came around.
Some of the the creatures in Roshar seem to have a symbiosis with spren. Maybe those with red shells have an evil symbiotic spren. If there is a creature possessed by an Odium spren around, that could cause the darkness in Kaladin and make his depression worse. Syl might be trying to warn Kaladin about the bad spren, but the weakened bond makes her unable to make him understand.
I favor Gepeto’s analysis of Kaladin’s depression episodes more than Wet’s. I don’t see a manic phase in Kaladin’s story. Being self-assured and taking risks aren’t by themselves a sign of mania (What’s with Wet’s mention of money and gambling? These are not Kaladin issues). Kaladin was placed on a pedestal by his parents and made to feel confident of his abilities. His self-assuredness when he is not actively depressed can be attributed to such upbringing rather than a mental health issue. Besides, his taking risks are only in the course of his required service and to protect those in his care. It’s a sign of how seriously he takes his protective mission in life, rather than being a mental problem. The fact that he doesn’t associate his current mental state with what’s happening to Syl is primarily a function of being self-absorbed in his state of depression. The difficulty he has in attracting the lamp’s stormlight and Syl’s subsequent regression into childlike wonder at a little creature is a sign of how difficult it is for Syl to invest Kaladin in his present frame of mind, and how much it costs her to do so. It is a small taste of what will lie ahead when Kaladin later falls into the chasm.
@3: A number of my family members and friends fight depression. I’ve had a few rounds of it myself.
It is never an “all the time” type of illness. But patterns of highs and lows. Each person has a unique pattern of highs & lows.
There are times in the books that Kaladin is fighting a depression low, but to one not familiar with the pattern – he would look “normal but quite guy” from the outside. Not the bottom low of this chapter, but not on an upward swing either.
I applaud Brandon for writing the “active depressive person.” Shows real experience with interacting with loved ones who suffer from depression. Yes, there are some people who are so affected by depression, that they don’t do much. But that is a very rare case.
You ask: Replies in blue.
@@@@@ many re: depression – Part of what I’m doing is comparing Kaladin’s written experience with my own experience. Clinical depression can be very episodic, depending on the individual triggers and responses. In my own case, situations where I can’t find “the right answer” – either because there is no clearcut right answer, or because I can’t find anyone who knows what it is – trigger episodes. So do situations where enormity paralysis kicks in – when there’s so much to do, I can’t even figure out where to start. Kaladin’s triggers are not exactly the same as mine, but I recognize the effects.
Bipolar disorder involves clinical depression phases and “manic” phases – which look very, very different for different people, and also last different lengths of time for different people. I have one friend who gets incredibly creative during her manic phases, and shuts down during the depressive phases to the point where she can barely brush her hair. The point is, “manic” doesn’t look the same in everyone. Some get out-of-control aggressive, others get stunningly creative, and many other manifestations.
The list I provided in the post was mostly copied from another source (which I suppose I should have cited, and if I could find it again I would), not from my own clinical research (since I haven’t done any of that!). It was one of those “often including but not limited to any of the following” kind of lists, so I felt free to include the things which I thought were relevant to Kaladin and leave out the ones which weren’t. Re: “money and gambling” – no, money is not his issue, and gambling in the sense of betting money on the outcome of a card game is not his issue. In context, though, it says, “making poor judgments, such as with money, relationships, or gambling” and I think that’s definitely applicable. The damage he’s been doing to his bond with Syl and his procrastination in dealing with Moash’s connections are just two examples of this kind of poor judgement with long-term consequences.
Edited for clarity above, and to add: While there are probably some people who are depressed all the time, and there may be some bipolar people who are always either depressed or manic, most people do spend some parts of their lives looking and even feeling pretty “normal.” When I get a depressive episode, it can last anywhere from part of a day to several months, and even then it will vary in how incapacitating it is. This is not something where you can say, “He (or she) doesn’t do this one thing all the time, so therefore cannot be clinically depressed.” And yes, Brandon does have experience and observation to work from.
Fairly certain we have WOB that Kaladin’s tattoos don’t hold because he subconsciously can’t let go of his shash brand.
Alice, @Commentary:
As always, contemplation of the Ghostbloods brings me back around to wondering what their real purpose is and where they originate.
It is easier to speculate more about what the Ghostbloods are against than what they are for. My thinking is that they are directly opposed to the Sons of Honor, who are working to bring back the Heralds and to the establish the supremacy of the Vorin church, even if it means bringing back the voidbringers and a desolation as a catalyst to these events. We see Mraize and Iyatil focused on Amaram thoughout the book, and we see Iyatil attempt to assassinate Amaram, an attempt that was only foiled by Talan.
Why would they have been working through a relatively obscure rural Veden lord, and what were they going to use him to accomplish?
It has been assumed that Helaran was a member of the non-KR Skybreakers cult, due almost entirely to an unreliable rumor mentioned in the book. But I suspect that may be mis-direction by Brandon. I think it more likely that Helaran was actually a member of the Ghostbloods and, once accepted into the group, persuaded the leadership to invest in his family. I posit that he was given a full set of shards by the Ghostbloods and dispatched to kill Amaram (see above), and the payment for his making that attempt may have been the loan of a fabrial and soulcaster to help his family maintain its standard of living without him.
Why were they trying to kill Jasnah?
The answer we have in the book to date seems to be that they want to kill Jasnah because Jasnah has been at war with them and caused the assassination of some of their members. Why did Jasnah start a war against the Ghostbloods? We are yet to know.
Who are these people?
The million-dollar question. RAFO?
I believe there has been a WoB confirming that Kaladin suffers from SAD, specifically when there are no storms for a while. Between his SAD, Jasnah’s atheism, and Renarin’s autism, Sanderson hasn’t been shy about including unusual characters in this series.
There’s something I’ve been wanting to discuss for a while: can anyone think of any other fictional character that has a similar combination of underlying skills and personality as Shallan?
The closest I can think of is Moist von Lipwig from the Discworld series, though he’s more of an extrovert and thrill seeker. Kyoko from the manga Skip Beat! is quite close too, though more introverted, far more explosive but not nearly so smart.
Creative thinking, lateral thinking, abstract thinking, logical thinking and reasoning, analysis, research, planning, quick thinking, eye for detail – Shallan is good at all this though Jasnah is better in some areas. I suspect that Shallan will be best at creative and lateral thinking and excellent at pretty much all mental skills, eventually – right now she’s quite bad at concealing her emotions and has a long way to go in a number of areas. I’ve no idea how far her people skills will develop. I’ve no idea if we’ll see her become proficient in direct physical combat – when training with Tyn, she never gets taught any sneaking skills because (she thinks) she has a tendency to stumble over her own feet.
In terms of process and methods I tend to think of her as the opposite of Vin – they attack problems in completely different ways. They’re a bit closer on personality but still very different. Both great to read.
People who are good at both creative skills and logical skills are very rare and I think it tends to be under appreciated, both in fiction and real life. So it’d be completely fine by me if she continues to almost never resort to force, violence, direct confrontation etc – ie specialising in “soft power”.
Going back to this chapter, her attitude towards Amaram is curious. We clearly see her consider the perspective of others, neatly avoiding the trap Kaladin has a tendency to fall in. This is speculation on my part but I do wonder if she has a natural tendency to repel negative emotions (eg hatred against Amaram) either by giving herself excuses/reasons not to think that way or to try to focus on other things/emotions. Her anger against Amaram does seem to slowly fade though we don’t see her finding out that Amaram got officially “found out” – would that change her opinion about Amaram vs Helaran? If we do ever see her directly confronting Amaram will “revenge” be a significant part of it, if she still thinks he was responsible at the time? Anyway, on current form it seems likely that Shallan will likely be able to forgive Kaladin for actually killing her brother, once she finds out – she’ll probably be more annoyed that he knew and kept it from her.
I think it’s also important to note Kaladin has issues with PTSD as well, and while certain types of violence (generally perceived as one-sided) trigger it more obviously in him, this period of inactivity does as well.
So when Kaladin thinks Syl is being childlike, to me anyways, it reads as being because mentally he’s regressed to how he was earlier before reaching the Shattered Plains, when Syl was a lot simpler and more childlike because the bond was weaker then.
The really heart-breaking part about the sequence, I feel, is the fact that Syl as she is just…can’t help Kaladin overcome this. Partly because this is something he needs to deal with himself, but also because even before the regression, I don’t think their bond had advanced enough for her to be able to help with this (there’s enough for her to identify that he needs help and something is wrong, but not much beyond that). As much as Pattern was a welcome addition, I think I like Syl’s slower development as her bond with Kaladin progresses – although that might just be because she was the first Nahel bond spren we encountered.
Edit: Oh hey look, first time it’s double-posted for me like that.
Well, shouldn’t let this go to waste.
@14: I’ve always felt that, while what Shallan did is probably the right action in rationalizing her feelings for Amaram, she does it too quickly without properly addressing those feelings. Mostly because in that way she basically approaches it in opposition to how Kaladin would but is still somewhat off from a proper way of dealing with it. Of course, after the end of WoR it’s hard to see any confrontation between Amaram and Shallan happening, but then who knows where characters will end up. (Plus there’s always a chance Amaram will continue to be her Ghostblood assignment).
Ugh. Too much Mental Health stuff. I come to this place to get away from work. Anyway, some authors write that sort of thing well, others…not so well. Seasonal Affective Disorder is now a just a seasonal specifier for Major Depression which has varying levels of severity (mild, moderate, severe). And Dysthymia was changed to Persistent Depressive Disorder (think unrelenting mild Major Depression for two or more years).
If you do a proper Bio-Psycho-Social for Kaladin then he doesn’t have (hypo)mania. He’s a Radiant and his KR type are fairly impulsive. So no Bi-Polar I or II.
PTSD and Depression can often co-occur. How Major Depression, seasonal subtype would work on Roshar is anyone’s guess.
I am sure it will just upset me but how exactly is he being patronizing here? I mean looking at awe and wonder at children or childlike innocence and in some extent wishing to go back to that is a rather understandable reaction and in no way patronizing. Yes he should have realized she was regressing and it was because of him. Ironic that the one time he doesn’t have an over inflated sense of his own importance … he is actually important (and likely intentional). Still not patronizing though (and no you are in no way being insensitive at him being self absorbed he is self absorbed here for not noticing so calling him out for it is fine. When sensitivity means not calling something what it is we have gone to far)
While I certainly wouldn’t trust Mraize I don’t think there’s any evidence that Helaran was ever part of the Ghostbloods – if I remember correctly, no symbol was found on his body. I don’t think there’s any known examples of Ghostbloods with Shards either. We know for sure that some planet-hoppers are included in their ranks but is the organisation specific to Roshar or is it spread out through the Cosmere? If it’s spread out then maybe they’re trying to export magic between planets, or something. They do seem interested in Soulcasting at least and sometimes I’ve wondered if their logo is a symbolic representation of a Soulcaster (3 gems).
Mraize seems pretty keen for Shallan to join properly, seemingly going out of his way to help her. It’ll be interesting if he tries to overawe Shallan to encourage her to join in heart and soul – eg by telling her about the Cosmere. Too soon for such things to happen in the series? Maybe, though with all these off-worlders running around it might be good to raise the subject within the books, even if briefly. I doubt Mraize is going to give her a long lecture on the Cosmere – just drop some tantalising hints as a hook.
Personally, I’m expecting the Ghostbloods and Sons of Honor to have pretty separate aims and that the reason there’s conflict is more because they’re stepping on each others toes in terms of the methods they’re using or things that they’re investigating. We’ll see…
Aside from the Mental Health aspect of what’s happening in this space, this particular scene was gut wrenching for me. We are watching their bond die, not explosively, but by inches. It was a grind reading this part on the first read through and even worse through subsequent rereads. Not even Shallan and her extreme competence helped out in this instance. I remember screaming at my phone (e-reader) for Kaladin to just snap out of his funk. The saddest part is that both he and Syl are blind but they both know something is wrong. Kaladin is praying not to become the wretch but doesn’t know he is killing Syl. Syl knows he’s killing her but has regressed to much to tell him so.
ChrisRijk @@@@@ 14
I like where you are going with this. Yes, I know people who are both creative and logical. I forgot the name of the test but there is a test out there about being right brain or left brain, one being logical and one being creative. Majority of people fall in either category. A small percentage sit smack on the middle and they excel in both.
I have family members who are accomplished in very opposite fields. One of them is a database administrator today who supported himself through college by doing illustrations for anatomy books used in medical schools. And I have another one who is actually a software engineer. Her hobby – making ugly sweaters. LOL She actually sells them during the Christmas season and makes a killing. Of course many around here will have varying opinions if ugly sweaters are artistic or not.
That said, I guess that is the reason why I like Shallan. I know that even after two books and one of them being her book, Shallan is not a favorite character. You are right in saying that many does not know what to think of her. I don’t even know what to think of her at times.
But though she is not my favorite character, I continue to be intrigued by her. I just hope that Brandon does not go into a polyamorous relationship. I know that we made jokes about it here. But quite frankly, though I don’t consider myself a square, I still have a hard time understanding polyamorous relationship.
I have made no effort to conceal the fact that Kaladin is my favorite major character in the Stormlight series thus far (Lift occupies that position for a currently minor character). It is also clear that Kaladin is the principal character of the current books. Hence, I find that the attempts to downgrade the character by making it seem that his actions are driven by base considerations or mental illness are objectionable and not what the author intended. That is not to say that he doesn’t have mental issues. He certainly has periods of depression. However, his heroism and drive to protect those in his care and others should not be characterized as an aspect of a manic personality.
It is a sign of realistic character building when the author shows the failings of his characters. Thus, Shallan is first introduced to us as someone attempting to gain the confidence of another in order to steal a very valuable object that she possesses. That is a serious ethical failing that is only made more understandable by her gradually revealed backstory – but not excused. In book 2 we have much of her story, and her past ethical failing is overshadowed by her continued ability to function well despite her traumatic upbringing and incidents. She becomes a very admirable character who is able to fascinate Kaladin despite his initially caustic attitude towards her and her class. I don’t believe, however, that the relationships between Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin will ever turn into a ménage-a-trois. They are too moral for such relationships to develop. Most likely, the current relationships will just deepen, but not change in character. Kaladin may well develop a fraternal bond with Shallan, but not a romantic one. He will also be bonded in friendship with Adolin. The romantic bond between Shallan and Adolin will likely deepen after a difficult period arising from Shallan’s new elevated status and the aftermath of Adolin’s killing of Sadeas.
@21: I sincerely doubt Brandon will settle on a polyamorous relationship… There may ups and down, there may be doubts, but I sincerely do not believe the story will unfold with Shallan equally loving both Kaladin and Adolin. I believe she will either choose one, choose a third party yet to be introduced or choose to remain single.
Besides, polyamorous relationships hardly are viable (jealousy does happen). Having Rand equally love three women and, more importantly, have each woman be fine with it was not WoT’s strongest point. A person can choose not to settle and have different mistresses (or lovers in the case of a woman), but to engage oneself into a full-blown polyamorous relationship is another step. It also is a step I doubt Alethi are ready to do which means it likely won’t even cross Shallan’s mind to even think about going there.
Not to mention I sincerely doubt both Kaladin and Adolin would be fine with it. Adolin certainly cannot “share” his concubine with another man. In fact, it wouldn’t even be proper for him to have one: it’s a wife he needs, not a F-friend. Therefore, for him to agree with such would mean abandoning his titles and his heirloom while agreeing to sire bastard children… I should also mention he is horribly shy with intimacy, so to think he would settle for an outside of marriage relationship with a woman shared with another man defies canon in unspeakable ways. Adolin just isn’t the S-machine some obscur part of the fandom tries to picture at times.
I don’t know what Kaladin’s stand would be, but I assume he would want to re-create the family he once had.
So no, you can rest assure, it won’t happen.
As for logical versus creative individuals, I personally believe most people are able to tap into both sides. A deeply logical individual evolving into a science-related environment can still have a creative side, just as an artistic individual can produce rational thoughts. However what is striking by Shallan’s example is the fact she is a deeply artistic individual who has learned to use logic to supplement her observations. She is not a character the fantasy world is used to have which may be why she remains unpopular. She reminds me of Kvothe which is alternatively either loved or despised by fans: just as Shallan he gets called a Gary-Stu. I personally love her pro-activeness and her ability to create solutions to her problems with a positive attitude. She however is harder to relate to than Kaladin. Kaladin is basically what most readers expect out of an epic fantasy hero and (bonus points) he suffers from depression which enables a significant proportion of readers to doubly emphasize with him. Shallan just does not have the same appeal, moreover she isn’t an action-oriented character. Sadly, a large chunk of Brandon’s readers are action-oriented which makes the average fan more inclined to love Kaladin while finding Shallan boring, hence the perception Shallan isn’t popular.
Perhaps the fantasy world needs more characters such as Shallan and less Kaladin to be more even. Just a thought.
@ALL: I read several comments from people wondering how Kaladin failed to noticed Syl was regressing and to link it to his own actions. My personal explanation is based on the fact it is sometimes hard to clearly see things which are right into our face. Distance is often needed to get a different perspective, but without it, we can be rendered blind: one sees the straw into his neighbors eyes, but fails to see the plank into his. Kaladin, I believe is currently experiencing such a predicament: he sees the wrongs everywhere, but fails to acknowledge his own responsibilities which blinds him to Syl’s regression.
@21: Heh, well… I am a computer programmer myself and have been since I was 8. Shallan almost certainly has the aptitude to be an excellent programmer from what I can see and I’m saying this from the perspective of someone who finds most professional programmers that I meet to be poor (ie the abilities needed to be good are very rare). Jasnah would probably make a good programmer too though best suited to rather different things – Jasnah probably for more theory-heavy high-precision projects like OS kernels, compilers/optimisers, real-time systems or life critical systems (eg fly-by-wire systems for aircraft) while Shallan would probably excel in smaller/simpler projects where she is responsible for a high percentage of the development (maybe even all) using a wide variety of skills, eg mobile apps/games or contract work. I find myself relating to Shallan quite often but there’s some areas where I’m more like Jasnah.
Regarding Shallan’s possible relationships in general I would like to see Brandon include the effects her magical skills could have on them since through Pattern she can sense lies (though quite how reliably is hard to say) which could lead to some delicious scenes: eg let’s imagine that Adolin is seriously being put through the wringer in book 3 due to murdering Sadeas and decides to end his relationship with Shallan to protect her and says to her face that “I don’t like you” (to try to push her away). Normally, such a thing would be very damaging to a relationship but if Shallan is certain that’s a lie then it almost becomes a confession scene from her point of view! (Okay, technically a lie doesn’t mean the opposite is true, but whatever) I have this image in my head of Shallan’s face first going through some interesting expressions and then hesitantly and blushing a bit she asks him to say that again and now it’s Adolin’s turn to make some interesting expressions. (Yes, very silly… but there’s all sorts of possibilities).
Regarding Shallan’s possible relationship with Kaladin, I’ve seen it said a number of times that it could become a fraternal type relationship. It took me a while to get a practical grasp of this. This is just my thinking so I wonder how others view it: if you consider a romantic relationship one where you care for each other, want to be with each other and want to show your best side and want the best for the other then in contrast a fraternal relationship is one where you still care for each other but where being together doesn’t matter, where jokes are made about your worst side and trying to show you best side may be laughed at but still hope for longer term success for the other. So for example, let’s say near the end of book 3 Shallan and Kaladin meet up again unexpectedly in a situation where others are around who don’t know both Shallan and Kaladin… and then Kaladin plays a prank on Shallan as a kind of revenge for the whole “boots” scene.
@Gepeto
Sorry to jump on the language bandwagon but this is the second time you have used the word concubine when it simply make sense to me.. Neither Navani nor Shallan can qualify as a concubine.
A concubine was historically a woman (or an in the case of Cleopatra) kept as property for the purposes of sex in addition to his actual wife or wives. In other words basically a sex slave.
Shallan is Adolin’s Fiance. Navajo is Courting Dalinar and both are the agressors in their respective relationships. And lastly and most importantly neither relationship is based on sex.
As much as I think Vorinism is a twisted culture, the wives have far more power than in any society you would expect to find that sort of thing
@25: LOL. I used the word concubine to describe what Shallan would be to Adolin shall they enter an open relationship with Kaladin. They couldn’t marry as he would split her with Kaladin, so she would essentially be his f-friend. I thought concubine was an appropriate word… I also used to echo most of the fanfic work I have happened to stumbled upon which nearly always involve these three being into this sort of relationship where they happily have sex together, play strip poker and treat each other as… sex toys… Really. The most amazing is Kaladin is the shy about intimacy self-conscious one while Adolin morphs into this out-going sex machine who loves to flaunt his naked self while Shallan simply watches…
Needless to say this isn’t happening in SA. Polyamorous isn’t happening. I don’t even know why people even write these things.
Given the breadth of human interactions and cultures I can see a human potential for MM, MFM or MF for our dashing triplets. However, I’ve seen nothing in the books to indicate that their society would handle anything but the MF option.
If they were in ancient Greece, Sparta in particular, it might well be Kaladin and Adolin as a warrior pair with Adolin just married to Shallen to produce the heir and a spare.
Given that the Everstorm is now here and desolation on the way it might be that no one is going to have much time for making babies. For Shallen it might well mean death. A pregnant KR would be at an extreme disadvantage in a battle.
@26: Well there’s a lot of reasons why people write those kinds of things, but to entirely understand would mean you cracked one of the secrets to how the internet works…a fate much worse than ignorance I think. lol
@24: For that hypothetical Adolin and Shallan scene that’s a romcom prediction I haven’t seen yet, it’s a pretty funny scene.
As for Kaladin pranking Shallan back for the boots, he’s usually too much of a stick in the mud for something like that (usually stuff like that comes from him more spontaneously)…but maybe Syl will give him a couple good ideas. Syl definitely has more experience when it comes to pranking people.
@28: Which secret? I have been on the Internet since… forever but this one always eluded me. I just don’t get it. It isn’t going to happen, it does not respect the characters nor canon so why act as if it were a thing? It isn’t. Mind, I don’t care which side of the fence a given character likes to dance, but I somehow care about people thinking there is no fence and everyone is just happy to bounce from one side to the other. It is not how these things work for most people… And why are all of those pairing MM? Or MFM? What is it with MM? The stories I read don’t even respect the characters personalities, they pretend they do but they don’t.
Each time shipping comes as a topic, someone is bound to drop it into the discussion… Someone is bound to say they hope for the OT3… It isn’t happening!
So sorry, I just don’t understand.
Gepeto @@@@@ 29 – MM=Male + Male, MFM= Male+Female+Male FM=Female+Male
As a group here, we are sci-fi/fantasy fans. Yet, I know that we read books outside of our favorite genre (that includes me, of course).
I believe what FenrirMoridin is saying @@@@@ 26 is the prevalence of pornography, which of course 99% of the time, those sites are actually not shown in Google searches unless you tell Google to allow it. I forgot what Google’s actual term for it is.
Back to books, there is actually a genre called erotica. It is relatively young, having been recognized only from the late 1980s. One of the first sci-fi erotica is a branch that built on the assumption that there is a gay relationship between Captain Kirk or Spock. I never read any of those. I just know it via word of mouth from the other Star Trek fans I know.
Though erotica had been around for 30 years (or much longer if you include Lady Chatterley’s Lover in the list), it was not until Fifty Shades of Grey that it became mainstream. A bestseller, a movie, even wines attached to it. E.L. James made a bunch from the books. Last I heard, she had cleared $93 million and that was before Fifty Shades of Grey, the movie was released. I don’t know how much she made from the movie.
With the ubiquitousness of Fifty Shades and the financial success of E.L. James, erotica became part of the mainstream. It has become a genre that touches other genres. There are sci-fi/fantasy books right now which are subclassified as erotica. And BTW, it is not just S&M. It runs the gamut of MM, MFM, FMF, MF, FF, etc
Hope this explains things a bit. :-)
@30: I didn’t know all of that.. Thanks, but my question remains: why are most ship I find MM or MFM? It is not the fact some people would prefer them, I understand that, I guess, in the case of SA, I am disturbed it is all I can find.
@31: Well, part of that is due to an interesting quirk of modern media. Since the majority of stuff tends to favor a male-dominated audience (this is changing of course), it tends to have a larger cast of male characters (ignoring stuff that goes more directly to titillate, i.e. harem like material). So the majority of character interaction is males together, generally in a platonic manner (although especially lately more material tends to embrace the potential camp of that, again though, this is not in regard to your question). So, when it comes to shipping characters, for a lot of people online it’s just easier to go with the ones they’ve seen more of and have a better sense of how their personalities would be. Often regardless of the gender of the involved parties.
Combine this with what @30 sheiglagh pointed out as part of what I was referring to: MM and MFM relationships are also quite often fetishized sadly (although it’s worth pointing out not as much as FF and FMF). So a lot of people ship those because it’s what they like or what gets them off…and while a lot of people do want their ships to come to fruition, there’s also usually a sense that even if it’s a ship that won’t be canon (and like everyone else who has brought it up, I don’t see polyamory in SA being a thing, at least not for Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin)…well then you can find other people who liked it online and the writing/art they made for it.
And I guess as for polyamory specifically…the majority of shipping that is done tends to skew to be from a younger audience, usually in their teens (oftentimes the lower teens at that). Polyamory is probably not as strange a concept to them all things considered. I could say more but this is all stuff I only know something of, I don’t want to go much further because I haven’t personally researched far enough to speak from a position of confidence on this matter.
@28: I can come up with plenty such “romcom predictions” :D
I haven’t read any Stormlight Archive fanfics but Shallan’s personality and abilities are ripe for creating “interesting” situations – just think how much mischief she could cause by making herself look like other characters. Though in practice within the actual series, I wouldn’t expect Shallan to go out of her way to prank people very often unless she gets quite bored, which doesn’t seem to be likely to be happening any time soon. That being said, my impression is that Brandon will continue to provide a certain amount of comic relief (to increase variety and give readers emotional breaks) and Shallan is the best character to provide that. I dunno what we’ll get but subverting some romcom or general romance tropes would be nice.
It would certainly be interesting to see these sorts of things be explored – the side-effects of magical powers on everyday human interactions. There was a bit of this in Mistborn though the situation in the Stormlight Archive will be rather different since nobody will know what the limits are. A kind-of worst case scenario for Shallan would be if multiple aspects come out at once – people are not used to something like “emotional Allomancy” existing (more likely to cause fear), it’s inherently a bit creepy, and if on top of that Shallan is caught out in a major lie/deception while being good at detecting lies in others. That could easily create a crisis of trust.
Regarding Kaladin pranking Shallan, I was more thinking along the lines that he sees a way to use her to help resolve a situation and as a bonus it just so happens to serve as a bit of revenge for the whole boots scene. ie, it would be more of a bonus rather than the primary reason.
Edit Just to be clear about one point: I’m not suggesting that Shallan (or Lightweavers in general) have abilities on a level with emotional Allomancy. It could be stronger in some ways but with some significant restrictions – for example, I often think of Lightweavers as being the order of hope and maybe they can magically give hope but not much else. The main point is that the characters themselves don’t know the limits, which can lead to fear and mistrust.
Regarding Kaladin in this chapter…
While I like Kaladin, I often feel like his faults are overlooked or forgiven too easily. Of course, all the characters have flaws and make mistakes so I try to be fair to all of them. In this particular case, I’m not annoyed with Kaladin. It’s easy to say in retrospect but at this stage in the story Kaladin has no real idea how the Nahel Bond really works and what is possible. It’s not unreasonable for him to think that Syl is just in a more childish mood today. Also, Kaladin is getting really dark due to his long confinement and tends with withdraw into himself and in general he’s not too sensitive to the moods and feelings of others – one reason why I think he won’t be getting a real romance until the second half of the series.
So yeah… for this particular bit I’m not annoyed but when he’s out on the Plains in a few chapters… that’s when I get annoyed.
@32: What bothers me is, in the specific case of SA, Shallan is a well defined character. However, most ships I find on the Internet either are Kaladin/Adolin or Kaladin/Renarin or the OT3 which includes heavy Kaladin/Adolin and very little Shallan… While I do agree fantasy and SF tend to feature more male characters than female, it isn’t an excuse in SA. The lack of female characters cannot be the reason. It thus highlights a clear preference for the MM ships among those who participate in the fandom and engage into fanfiction writing.
Again, it isn’t the fact it exists that bothers me, but the fact there is little of anything else.
I do agree real life has fantasize (in a way) the FF and the FMF ships, it seems however as if the Internet life has a preference for the MM or the MFM ones. I have sincerely rarely read or seen fanfics exploring FF relationships while no matter which fandom I drop into, there is a strong prevalence of MM.
I agree most writer seem rather young, but still demography wants it the MF ships should have a stronger presence (stronger than none would not admittably be much). Right now, it is all about the OT3 or any MM ship and absolutely no MF. That is very puzzling to me. I also wonder if there really are people who think Kaladin/Adolin will become canon…… that would be even more puzzling.
I also don’t understand why people would ship heterosexual characters into homosexual relationships. Does it mean the majority of people who engage in fandoms are either homosexual or bisexual and since they perhaps have a harder time finding characters to relate to, they resolve themselves to ship other characters? It seems implausible as according the Wikipedia, the prevalence of homosexuality is about 10% in the general populace… Please don’t throw me rock for talking statistics…
This being said, I don’t want to sound detrimental to anyone who would be either homosexual or bisexual, I am simply wondering about a phenomenon I have noticed, but fail to understand. These are very difficult questions to ask as most people react very badly to those who dare ask.
@34: I agree with you. I agree Kaladin’s faults are too easily forgotten, on average. However, I don’t fault him, in this chapter, for not seeing or realizing what is happening to Syl. Sometimes, we are just too close to notice the obvious.
Gepeto @@@@@ 35 – I don’t know what OT3 means and I really haven’t read any fanfic on SA3 that is actually “yaoi”.
Yes, “yaoi” is a subgenre of erotica. Look it up in wikipedia for the whole explanation but here is the short version –
If you are wondering why I know these things, it’s because I am a big manga fan. :-) Plus Japanese fashion is a class on its own. Hence, when I am doing research for my trend reports, I actually bump into these knowledge bits that quite frankly, I don’t even know why I remember them. LOL
Just remember that before the Internet, many of these things are already being consumed by niche markets. But, with the rise of digital publishing, the market, which up to today has remained very small, are now united. So, Yaoi consumers in Asia, Europe, North America and Australia (I don’t know much about South America and Africa) are now connected via the web.
I can only explain to you partly why MM is very popular. It is because most of them are Yaoi, which are usually consumed by women because for all intent and purposes, Yaoi is a romantic story. And most romances cater to women. Harlequin and Mills & Boon have been making a killing for decades by publishing romances.
I always say that Brandon is not a romance writer and I am glad he is not one because I love Brandon’s storytelling style. I am saying he is not a romance writer, because, if he is, then that moment when Adolin saw Shallan after she came back from the chasms would have been a chapter on its own. LOL As it was, though there really was drama and there was romance, it was not enough for a romance fan. What we got is what fantasy fans get, which is perfect for us.
That said, the romance junkie inside me was clamoring for more. LOL I wanted more than a kiss! Or for that kiss to linger. I wanted Adolin to say something more and Shallan to say more. I want every sigh, every breath and every look to be explained. LOL
But, of course Brandon writes for Tor and not Harlequin. LOL. We are after all here at tor.com and not at harlequin. com. LOL
Are there more males consuming sci-fi/fantasy? I believe so. But, they also drag their girlfriends and wives to it. Look at Star Wars and Star Trek. Are there more women consuming romances? yes, but they also drag their boyfriends and husbands to it. Biggest example – Fifty Shades of Grey. Exit polls show that the men who saw the movie was because their significant other dragged them to it. :-)
I know that probably this sounds rubbish to you being a serious reader. :-) But, I hope it helps you understand.
@35: To add onto what Sheiglagh said excellently @36 – a lot of those fans who consume that material generally hold character sexuality as mostly fluid for the sake of fulfilling what they want. So the detail that they are shipping heterosexual characters in homosexual relationships doesn’t really matter to them. What they want to draw/write/etc. relies on a homosexual pairing rather than a heterosexual one. And while that may seem unrealistic considering none of the characters are going that way (as of book 2 anyways), it’s worth it to add that from the viewpoint of crafting fiction of any kind, be it writing or art, there’s something slightly more novel about writing a romance with same-sex couples/multiple people relationships than your much more typical, much more often explored heterosexual pairings. I don’t necessarily agree, but that’s definitely a popular sentiment out there.
Also I suppose one could make the argument that, before Words of Radiance but even including that, it would be hard to say the sexualities of a lot of the main characters are defined. A lot of the younger ones are still well within the age range that in modern society we consider a prime time for people to discover themselves (although as always, plenty of people know their sexuality before even hitting puberty, and some discover it much later on as well).
@36: I guess my issues deal with the fact I don’t understand why heterosexual women would want to read about MM. What’s in it for them? I understand erotica such as Fifty Shades, even if I haven’t read it, I can understand why it is appealing to certain readers, just as I understand why some women like to read Harlequin. I, however fail to understand why women would want to read/write about two heterosexual men getting into a sex active homosexual relationship. I can understand why some men would want to read it, but women?
I agree Brandon is not a romance writer and nor do I wish him to be even if I, just as you, wished he has put in more thoughts into the Shallan/Adolin’s scenes. For instance, his POV. This being said we aren’t about to read graphic sex into SA which is just fine with me. I was not expecting it anyway.
As for Fifty Shades, the one male I know who saw it, hated it… I must admit I did record the movie… I was curious but I have yet to watch it.
OT3 is a tag used to label the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin ship.
I guess you are right, I am too serious to understand these things.
@37: How can it not matter? These characters have a personality, desires and well everything. If you start to modify them to fit your needs, then you aren’t writing about the same characters: you are simply cherry picking on the characteristic you like. Adolin and Kaladin aren’t gay. There is more than enough textual evidence for it, there is no doubt about it and while the younger characters are young, they aren’t 15 years old either. It is quite clear both Adolin and Kaladin are attracted to women and not men. Neither think of each other in romantic terms. So why ship them? Every single fiction I have read about them were horribly OOC and neither behaved as he would in book, so why bother? If I were to write a fiction, I would try to write the characters as the author intended them to be or I would create my own. I guess I am bothered some individuals would think the characters the author wrote are meant to be manipulated to fit any agenda which pleases them. I personally like to imagine they evolve within the characteristics the author designed for them.
@38: Which is where what you like deviates from what most of those fanfic writers like I imagine. They’re writing what they like, which is an interpretation of a couple characters they like in a relationship they like. And even if they’re OOC, it’s important to remember that what seems OOC for one person is not necessarily OOC for another. You have a very rigid interpretation of the characters which you want adhered to, but there will be other interpretations out there. And while personally I agree with you that, as they’ve been presented so far, all the main characters are heterosexual…I can definitely see how someone who wants to see that kind of relationship could see hints of it.
You say that if you were going to write about the characters you’d want to adhere as closely as possible to what you think the author’s intended image of them is (their personality, etc.). Some of those fanfic writers might feel differently: they might feel that, since Sanderson is going to write them that way anyways, is there any harm in them deviating from that for a little fanfiction? And that’s not counting the fanfic writers out there who would argue that they’re writing the characters as they feel is true to what they see as their personalities.
I’m…not sure what else I can say but, don’t torture yourself by seeking it out now? If I had access to it I’d offer you one of those neuralyzers from the Men in Black series to help you forget about them. Shippers are going to ship, and honestly as ships go any pairing of Adolin and Kaladin is not nearly as cracktastic as they could get. At least those characters exist in the same world and have communicated!
Welp. Now I understand why many authors loathe fanfic… I’ve always avoided it, myself, because most of what little I’ve seen is badly written anyway. It seems my dislike of bad writing has kept me away from some truly awful stuff. Obviously, I’m with Gepeto here; if you want to write fanfic, stick to the characters as written or create your own. (Frankly, I suspect most of the people who write this stuff couldn’t come up with an original story or character to save their lives, so they have to steal from other people to write anything.)
The explanation I heard for why women like yaoi is simply that it gives you two bishounen (pretty boys) you can dream about in one story.
@39: But why does most fanfic writers like to deviate from the canon so much? Why isn’t there normal fanfiction where writers try to explore one facet of the story while using the characters as their creator intended them to? I can understand the exercise, but I am puzzled as to why it is ALL there is.
I agree there is not a single way to interpret the characters: we sure don’t all agree. I don’t believe my interpretation is more rigid than any other commentator who posts here on a regular basis. I have stated several times I could be wrong about a great many things such as how to properly read Kaladin’s behavior. If Brandon proves me wrong about my interpretation, then so be it. I am after all working with incomplete information to make those analysis. However, some characteristics are downright written in the text: there is no interpretation left to be had. For instance, Adolin is shy about intimacy: each time Shallan takes a step forward, he takes a step back blushing. He also never investigate close contacts. This is right there, in the text. Therefore, to write him as completely out-going and forth-coming about them is deviating from the character. Adolin would never step forward to bluntly kiss a girl he is interested in, so why would he do so with Kaladin (providing he were gay that is) and why would Kaladin of all people be self-conscious about his body and be the one to back away blushing? Kaladin sure had no issues in holding Shallan down there in the chasm… now let’s try to imagine the same scene by replacing Kaladin by Adolin… It goes quite differently.
Also, Kaladin may have personal issues with his past life, but he has, so far, kept them on the inside. To have him break down in uncontrollable tears, thinking about Tien, at the bottom of a chasm with Renarin holding him is just OOC. There is no way the character, as currently written, would behave this way.
Again, I can understand some people are just trying for an exercise of style, but my main issues remain the fact it seems all of them are going for the same thing. There may be one or two fics out there who are trying to follow canon, but they are so sparse within the Kaladin/Adolin hardcore sex ones I may as well be looking for one special snowflakes within a snow storm.
Some people would ship characters who haven’t ever met? Wow, that’s something… as for seeing homosexual hints into the Kaladin/Adolin banter is just downright… wrong. Why? Because they are bickering it means they are into each other? It all goes back to the discussion we had a while back pertaining Kaladin, Shallan and the readers expectations when they read about two characters who are openly fighting… I have somehow issues into thinking each time two characters interact, it is turned into romantic interest as if people had no other reason to talk to other than to initiate sex…
I should probably stop googling for these things and order myself a neutralizer… but it’s going to be one more year, at the very least, before we get new SA material. Sure there are signings and WoB, but lately I haven’t stumbled on anything which interested me. I just want to have new material to fuel my speculation making.
@40: If I were an author, I don’t know what my stand would be on fanfic… I know Jordan hated it. I don’t think Brandon hates it, but I don’t think he reads it either.
I guess I am simply trying to find someone with a modicum of talent who’d be willing to try at writing some plot lines for SA3 while I am stuck waiting for the real thing.
@41: But if the girls want to daydream about two men, then why put them together? Doesn’t it defy the purpose? And pretty boys? That does not sound very…. huh… sorry to use the term, but manly?
Gepeto @@@@@ 42 – you asked “But why does most fanfic writers like to deviate from the canon so much?”
The answer is also a question. Why do people climb mountains? Why do some people like sci-fi/fantasy while others like reading mystery/thrillers? Why do some people like The Kardashians while others truly loathe them?
The differences in people make the world go round. It is our differences that make life interesting. Of course, sometimes that conflict results into war, which is very sad. But, without diversity, the world will be a very boring place and we will not make new inventions.
Imagine a world where every woman looks like Jennifer Lawrence and every man looks like Liam Hemsworth. Both are truly beautiful creatures. But, if there were no one to compare them with, then we won’t even know they are beautiful.
It reminds me of an old nursery rhyme. It says, “Life is but comparison, both the bitter and the sweet; And it takes a bit of both of them to make our lives complete.”
Just to put things in perspective, Fifty Shades of Grey was written as fan-fic of Twilight. :-) Christian Grey was based on Edward Cullen and Anastasia was based on Bella Swan.
And just another tidbit – Stephenie Meyer, the author of Twilight is a devout Mormon. :-) She did not even put any sex scenes in the books.
Believe me when I say that fans of Twilight have varying opinions about Fifty Shades of Grey. I’m just mentioning it here to show that we don’t know what people will like. I read Twilight and saw the movies. I read Fifty Shades and saw the movie. I believe that the characters are so different from each other.
Sometimes, people just need inspiration. I’m not defending writers of bad fan fic. I’m just saying that inspiration comes from the strangest places.
Maybe I’m just more used to it from years of following anime/manga fans, so much doesn’t surprise me anymore. Eg, I can watch this video, get all the references and be amused even though there are people who will seriously do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tc7MH5ZXbg
But yeah… it does get annoying when people don’t respect the source, though in a lot of cases I think it’s just people wanting to create their own preferred fantasy. That being said, there’s plenty of good fan created content out there that’s really good. For some it can be a stepping stone to creating fully original content.
But I’ll stop here since we’re getting further and further off-topic…
@42: Hmmm I would rather have a world filled with Chris Hemsworth than Liam… but I get your point. It is just strange for me. I would have expected more writers would try to stay closer to the canon. Surely not all readers enjoy the fics I inadvertently read… I understand the concept of people being different but, when it comes to fanfic, I feel there is only one difference that matters: nobody cares about the original story and shipping does not respect the sexual orientation of the characters. Mind, it makes me wonder, is there any fandom were a canonically homosexual character is depicted in an heterosexual relationship or does it only happen the other way around? I wouldn’t know the answer to this question, but I have to wonder.
I understand inspiration can come from various places, but where are the people who simply wish to extrapolate on the existing story? When I ranted against the lack of Adolin POV during certain scenes, one poster recommended me to seek fanfiction where it would be exploited, but all I could find were… MM relationships. Not exactly what I was looking for… Isn’t there anyone else wanting to read extra material without having to fall within the mold of glorifying certain ships?
@44: I am aware the phenomenon is running rampant in the wonderful world of mangas/animes which is why I am absolutely against SA to ever be adapted through this media.
As for the current subject, how did we end up talking shipping again? For those who wonder, I can see those relationships pan out in various way, but not in the ways I have read through the existing fanfics.
I agree with @40 Wetlandernw and Gepeto on the subject of varieties of sexual relationships possible for the characters in the Stormlight series. Thus far, Sanderson has not provided a real indication of same sex attraction among the main characters – or any character. Shallan and Adolin have a physical attraction even if Shallan is the one who expresses it more openly. The same is true for Navani and Dalinar. Kaladin becomes enamored of Shallan’s personality once he learns much of her history, but he doesn’t allow that feeling to become overtly sexual given their circumstances, his ‘mourning’ for Syl, and Shallan’s existing relationship with Adolin. I don’t recall a same sex relationship in other books by Sanderson that I have read. In fact, even heterosexual relations are not explicitly described – although that of Siri and Susebron in The Warbreaker comes close. As to future relationships in the Stormlight series, I would be surprised if such varieties of sexual relationships were expressed. Sanderson is a confirmed Mormon whose religious teachings forbid same sex relations. It would take a natural evolution of characters in that direction to induce someone like Brandon to explore such unplanned possibilities.
@46: Actually, here is a good WoB on Brandon and LGBT characters.
Questioner: How come you don’t have any LGBT characters in your books?
Brandon: I do! This one [Shadows of Self] actually has one. Ranette is lesbian. Let’s see, transgender is awkward because I have the kandra who are kind of no-gender and both, that doesn’t really count, but it’s kind of me testing the waters and seeing whether I can write someone who has fluid gender and not be offensive with it, does that make sense? So keep an eye on what I do with the kandra through the books. The other gay person is Drehy from Bridge 4, he’s based on my good friend Ryan who is gay, and so you will see his husband appear in the series eventually as well, but we really haven’t talked about that one yet, there really hasn’t been anything but Ranette we’ve talked about and it becomes more and more obvious as we talk about it in the books.
He does write LGBT characters, but not in his main characters mostly because he is still trying at writing them appropriately. It is also interesting to know the Kandra are trial for transgender characters…
Since I have happened to stumble on a flock of new WoB here are two others I personally find interesting:
Questioner: Why are there so many Kholins that are Radiants?
Brandon: […] So the Kholin family is in Alethkar, which hereditary was one of the homes of the Knights Radiant. It’s still kind of in the forefront of the, how shall we say, collective unconscious and things like this. Plus there’s–
Questioner: And then they are on the forefront of that.
Brandon: Yes. I mean… yeah. The– And so the spren, some of them are naturally looking for where a lot of Radiants used to be. So it’s just a higher concentration of spren around the area, if that makes sense?
So there is nothing special about the Kholins, they just happened to be at the forefront of a nation usually rich in proto-Radiants, hence the sprens are looking for candidates there. It would also explain why they are investigating Elhokar despite him not seeming a proper candidate: they were likely just fishing for proto-knights.
Questioner: Have we– I think you mentioned in a previous signing that we’d already met one member of every Order of the Knights Radiant.
Brandon: Yes, I think you have.
Questioner: My question is, have we met two Edgedancers? And is one of the Dustbringers a viewpoint character?
Brandon: One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.
Questioner: Haven’t been yet?
Brandon: Nnnnoooo, not yet, I don’t think. But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.
Questioner: I don’t.
Brandon: Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order. If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order.
Questioner: [Have we met someone from the Dustbringers?]
Brandon: Well… Dustbringers are really complicated. /Really/ complicated. So that’s the weird one. Okay? So let’s shelve that one. You’ll see why it’s really weird later on.
I wonder what is the most interesting tip bit into this one: the fact we haven’t met someone from all of the orders if we exclude the Heralds and a Dustbringer will eventually become a POV character, but currently isn’t. It thus mean we may not have met future members of the following orders: Skybreaker, Willshaper, Stonewards and Dustbringers. The most interesting has to be: RIP Adolin as a Dustbringer. Not that I am surprised by it as I’ve been advocating against it, but it more or less rest the case.
Oh and I have another one which confirms we have seen two Edgedancers while I have another one who says Glys appearance is relevant and important which leads me to believe the second Edgedancer is not Ym. Make your own conclusions.
change of topic …
Alice, you wrote “Apparently there is a certain amount of mostly-true information readily available regarding the event; she’s put together enough information to know that when Helaran left Jah Keved—and left his siblings to their father’s mercies—it was to kill Amaram“
I don’t think there need to be any information available. Shallan saw that Amaram is now in posession of the Shardblade which she recognizes as the one her brother formerly held. So it’s only logical to assume that it was taken away from him by him getting killed – and that his killer has it now. She is “fair” enough to admit that there was likely a fight and not stealth involved, so that you can’t really only blame Amaram…
btw: I wholehartedly agree with STBLST @8 and 22, that I don’t see any manic behaviour in Kaladin. He worries way too much, he questions himself way too much and the incident where he lands himself into prison can easily be explained by adrenalin-driven overconfidence …
@47: There’s sure been some interesting WoBs lately. I wonder what’s so different about Dustbringers. Sounds like something more than just a weird spren.
@48: I think what Alice is getting at there is that Shallan thinks that Helaran specifically went to Alethkar to kill Amaram. Back in the “into the sky” chapter, Shallan had immediately realised that Amaram had killed Helaran and taken his Shards but she didn’t know the context at that time. Her specific thought in this chapter is that Halaran abandoned them “To try to kill this man, apparently—or so she’d been able to put together from what she’d read of Amaram and his Shardblade”. ie the available evidence suggests that Helaran was specifically after Amaram and it wasn’t a chance meeting.
Random thought 1: I wonder if the Ghostbloods will ever ask Shallan to kill Amaram. I know he’s “reserved” but they still might ask. If they do, I wonder how Shallan would deal with it.
Random thought 2: I wonder if Kaladin will ever be in a situation where he knows that Shallan intends to kill Amaram where he (Kaladin) thinks that it’s for revenge over Helaran – ie that Shallan would be killing Amaram for the wrong reasons. Would it be “right” to defend Amaram in such a case? But in such a scenario the only way Kaladin would be able to stop Shallan (or so he would think) would be to admit to doing it himself. Dilemmas, dilemmas…
Random thought 3: will Shallan ever guess that Jasnah could have theoretically survived the attack on the boat before she finds out that Jasnah is actually alive? At this point in the reread she doesn’t have enough info but if she ever starts thinking about it seriously by the end of the book then she could come to that conclusion – at this point she has no idea that Radiants could survive huge injuries that would be absolutely fatal otherwise. Of course, if Shallan does come to the conclusion that Jasnah could have survived and with Jasnah being “missing in action” at the time she would have also then conclude that she doomed Jasnah’s chances of survival – unless she remembers one last thing and has determined that Jasnah is an Elsecaller (which she should be able to from the in-world Words of Radiance book or other works on the Radiants). The last thing being that Jasnah’s body is mysteriously missing when Shallan is stumbling about Jasnah’s room in the boat – Shallan had wondered if the body had been taken out from the room. If she puts that all together she would have evidence that Jasnah might be alive somewhere.
I honestly have no idea.
Brandon has always been evasive when asked questions about the Dustbringers, but lately he has taken upon blatantly telling us this order is different, bizarre, special. A previous WoB stated we would have to wait until a member of this order becomes a main character for us to know more about it, which more or less implied no current POV character are set to become a member of this order.
This new one goes in the same direction, except it tells us he has previously been including the Heralds in his numbering. I don’t remember if we met Chana, but if we did, it means we have likely not yet met a proto-Dustbringers. I renders all theory making about Adolin or Rysn falling into this order very unlikely, in the case of Adolin, I believe it just killed it.
Does anyone know if we have met Vedel? If we did, then we have confirmation: Ym was a Truthwatcher.
@49: I don’t think Shallan will figure out Jasnah is alive… It does not strike me as the kind of thoughts someone would have: she saw her body, her mind is convinced she died. The boat afterwards sink. She does not know Jasnah can enter with her body into Shadesmar and she has no way of knowing. I thus don’t see why she would start questioning what she has already accepted as a fact.
@49 ChrisRijk, I don’t believe that Shallan will be put into a moral dilemma concerning Amaram. First of all, I don’t know that the Ghostbloods are still all that interested or concerned about Amaram. It seems that their enmity was based on the ambition of the Sons of Honor, of whom he was a leading member, to force the advent of the Desolation in order to bring the church into ascendancy. Well, that day has come with its Everstorm and Voidbringers. Amaram is therefore largely irrelevant to dealing with these events. Second, if they still wish to kill him, why attempt to use Shallan for the purpose. She is hardly a trained killer and he is now accessible (they are all in Urithiru). Third, why would Shallan agree to such a demand, if made? She realizes that Amaram had been targeted by her brother and, presumably, acted in self-defense. Finally, I don’t believe that Shallan will long be under the impression that her brother was killed by Amaram. It would only take another heart-to-heart chat between her and Kaladin to learn that he was her brother’s slayer – not Amaram.
@50: I agree that normally Shallan would avoid thinking of such things – that’s her trait. However, she’s going to be thinking a lot more about Radiants in book 3 and discussing them, so it’s likely that what order Jasnah is/was in will come up. The WoR book that Shallan has should give enough hints as to what Elsecallers can do.
I think the most likely scenario is that someone will raise a question that will get Shallan thinking. For example, she tells Dalinar “But I think I could actually take a spear through the stomach, and my abilities would heal me up without a scar. I’m probably the most difficult person to kill in this entire camp” – so there might be some further discussion on that.
@51: I’ve no idea how likely my “random ideas” are but it’s certainly possible, I’d say. Why would the Ghostbloods ask her to assassinate Amaram? That’s easy (in my mind) – I very much doubt that they trust Shallan at this point and won’t do any time soon but they also want to take steps to tie her closer to them whether she likes it or not. Helping her brothers is an example of that – she can hardly protest and makes it riskier to take more drastic action. More specifically, if they think it’s likely that Shallan has some natural hatred towards Amaram by “asking” her to kill him, it’s much more likely that she would naturally agree. And if she does it then it ties her more closely to them and she has less room to protest against further requests. With her brothers effectively held hostage, Shallan has little room to refuse. I also very much doubt that the Ghostbloods will leave Amaram alone – there seems to be some personal animosity and since Amaram will be investigating things in Urithiru they’ll naturally be rivals anyway.
As for how long until Shallan finds out that it was actually Kaladin, who knows. I doubt she’ll be chatting with Kaladin any time soon but enough people know that Amaram actually stole the Shards that Shallan could naturally hear about it, eventually.
With deepest apologies, there’s a change to the schedule. Since the lovely and highly intelligent folks at Tor are now on holiday and will not return until January 4th, and since life sorta happened to me and I couldn’t get the post done in time yesterday… there will be no reread post on December 31. I’m sorry, but there it is.
So. Merry Christmas, happy new year, and we’ll be back on January 7 (my sister’s birthday!) with Chapter 65, wherein Li’l Shallan decides it’s her job to rescue the rest of her family.
Oh so nothing to discuss about during the vacations. That’s a bummer. Have good one Alice.
@@@@@ 53 Alice
No worries
Anticipation makes the payoff all the sweeter.
Thanks. :) I had really hoped to get it done, but I got sick just after this post went up, so all the things I was supposed to be doing on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday got shoved off until this week. And, you know… not to slight anyone here, but getting my family’s Christmas stuff done takes priority! :)
But there are now three chapters of The Bands of Mourning available, and I’m guessing there will be a fourth on Monday, so we’re not completely deprived. Or we could launch this post off into a survey, or a completely off-topic discussion… WoT readers – remember the first time Leigh took a week off for JordanCon? And we blew up the server? Heh. We are limited only by our creativity!
Also – if y’all haven’t read this year’s State of the Sanderson, that provides plenty of fodder for discussion.
There’s always another secret.
Oh we could run down a survey… What should we ask for? Anyone’s got any idea which would lead into indecent amount of discussion?
State of Sanderson was great, but there isn’t much to discuss in there.
The following projects are listed as coming out in the next three years:
The Bands of Mourning (Wax & Wayne 3) – January 2016
Calamity (Reckoners 3) – February 2016
The Dark Talent (Alcatraz 5) – June or August 2016
White Sand 1 Graphic Novel – 2016?
Cosmere Short Fiction Collection – late 2016?
Oathbringer (Stormlight 3) – early 2017
The Aztlanian (Rithmatist 2) – mid-late 2017
New YA project – early 2018
The Lost Metal (Wax & Wayne 4) – fall 2018
Question: Which three (3) of these projects are you most eager to read? Which one are you least interested in reading?
Alright I’ll start. I am super ready for Christmas.: all the gifts are wrapped, all the cookies are made and secured into their gift boxes (teachers and daycare people already got their’s) and I made 4 pies today. Productivity. They look delicious.
So the project I am the most excited about is, of course, SA3. It is not even a contest for me: I want SA3, I want more excerpt, I want to read it and waiting for it is pure torture. I don’t know what I can possibly do to get a few answers, WoB or anything I would personally be interested into to munch on until it gets release.
Next, I would have to say Aztlanian. The Rithmatist is one of my favorite Brandon’s story and I am keen on reading its follow-up.
After that, I sincerely don’t know. I haven’t read Shadow of Self yet as Mistborn isn’t my most anticipated read (and I am not done with Codex Alera). I can’t thus say if I am excited about book 3 and 4, but among the choices they’d probably go in third.
To summarize it:
1) OATHBRINGER. There I said it. No explanation needed.
2) The Aztlanian
3) Book 3 or 4 of Mistborn, once I read book 2.
Now those I am least excited about would be:
1) Alcatraz, mostly because I haven’t read this series and I don’t intend to as it is aimed towards children. I’m glad the kids get a new book, but it won’t change much in my personal life.
2) Calamity because I disliked Firefight. I have several issues with the Reckoners. Steelheart was enjoyable enough, but Firefight was a terrible read, for me. I’ll read Calamity, but I won’t rush the stores for it.
3) The new YA project because it is supposed to walk into the tracks of the Reckoners which I disliked.
So these were mine.
I remember the first JordanCon and the WoT reread. But then again, I was also AT the first JordanCon so I didn’t suffer so much enjoy every second of it like a kid in a candy store.
Ah well, pity no reread article but life always finds a way…to interfere that is.
As for the State of the Sanderson, always really appreciate those posts, and as for the survey…the ones I’m most interested in is hard to say. On one hand, Bands of Mourning is coming out really soon, so I’m hyped for that…but at the same time I know it’s coming out soon, so I don’t have all the anticipation of waiting a super long time. So with that in mind…
1) Oathbringer: I just want to see Kaladin, Shallan, etc. again, and having a little over a year to wait is going to be brutal (but I want Sanderson to take as much time as he knows it needs, it’s better we get the book he wants rather than the book he needs to rush out).
2) The Lost Metal: Cheating with this choice – since Bands of Mourning is coming out soon I don’t feel much anticipation for that, but knowing that after finishing that I’ll need to wait 2 years for the final Wax and Wayne book? That’s going to be TORTURE!
3) The Aztlantian: Similar to number 2, while I enjoy the Reckoners, Calamity is coming out soon. There’s been a much bigger gap between The Rithmatist and the Aztlantian…and I do enjoy it a bit more than the Reckoners series as well, admittedly. Joel and Melody are stronger leads than David and Megan imo.
Also there is no scene that got me harder in the “why is this badass it’s so nerdy but I’m MARKING OUT” sense than when Fitch stepped up and DUAL-WIELDED CHALK!
As for the one I’m least interested in, I was going to say White Sand because I’m not a big comics guy: I’ve read all of Fables from my local library but that was about it, I’m way more into manga. But…thinking about it, from a conceptual standpoint of it being both a part of the Cosmere and a possible expansion of Sanderson works, which could get the ball rolling more in other areas, it has more of a reaction than the new YA project, which suffers from the fact there’s just not enough there for me to be excited for it. I’m sure once it’s closer to coming out that won’t be an issue anymore, but as of right now…yeah the 2018 YA project is what I’m least interested in.
@61 FenrirMoridin
For a while White Sand was one of the unpublished manuscripts you could email Brandon about. I did so and got to read an electronic copy.
I’ll say nothing about it except that I’m excited for the graphic novel release and looking forward to paying money for it.
So my list is:
1. Bands Of Mourning (I’m not reading anything new right now and it’s drving me mad, MAD I SAY!)
2. White Sand
3. Oathbringer (this would be higher but the voices are cautioning me against thinking about the wait. They say it’s not good for my sanity…)
My top choices that I can’t wait to read:
1) SA3 of course! I really want Dalinar’s back story and to learn about what happens next!
2) Azlatian: The first book I really enjoyed, and I can’t wait to get back to Joel and Melody’s world.
3)Alcatraz 5: Yes, I know I’m not the targeted demographic for this book but I really loved all of them and was so excited to learn that they were being published again with new artwork and that we would finally get a conclusion to the story. This series gave me several lol moments during reading and is very lighthearted and fun. Another plus is my son is almost at the age where he can enjoy them, and I’m planning to buy the whole new set of books when ever they come out hopefully as a set.
As an aside, I got my hubby for Christmas a boxed set of the Mistborn trilogy, can’t wait to make him a Brandon Sanderson fan too!
Personally, I’m not too excited about Brandon’s YA books, so SA3 and the Mistborn 1.5 era books all the way!
Hope you had a lovely Christmas Wetlander!
My top choices:
1) Stormlight 3 – Oathbringer
2) Wax and Wayne 4 – The Lost Metal
3) Rithmatist 2 – The Aztlanian – I love Joel and Melody and need more of this world! My daughter would put this as her second choice.
4) Alcatraz 5 – The Dark Talent – I know I’m not the target audience of these books but as a teacher I frequently read kids books, and these were so unique. My school will be purchasing the new ones as they come out :-) This is my daughter’s top choice, anxiously waiting for the series to finish.
Probably least interested in the new YA book although I’m sure I’ll enjoy it when it comes out.
2016 is here!!! For the question, what I want to read next the most, my answer is SA3 hands down.
But, how about a little fun. Something we wish for but there is no doubt that Brandon will not write it or include it in the story line because it is so ridiculous. LOL
Mine is this – I want a TMZ style show in Roshar or the Shattered Plains at least powered via spanreed and a rogue Lightweaver (similar to a rouge Jedi Knight ) obviously benign, and just having some fun. :-) My choice of Roshar’s Harvey Levin is Elhokar. :-) He is a Lightweaver so like Shallan, he can create a persona. He disguises himself to leave the Palace and just like today’s paparazzi, he captures moments and shows them in a light show.
He can even charge spheres for people to see the show! Extra income! And since he is a KR, albeit a hidden one, he can have squires. They can be Roshar’s paparazzi. :-)
This sounds silly!!! I know. Blame it on too much champagne on New Year’s Eve. But, this forum has been so quiet for so long and we are getting too serious!!!
Either, we got so preoccupied with Star Wars (like me who had seen it twice already) and of course the holidays. But we need to get the ball rolling. We cannot allow the Skywalkers to rule Tor! We need to raise the banner for the Kholins!!!
:-)
Sheiglagh @66: I like your idea. Except I cannot see Elohokar as the host. I would prefer Rock as the host.
Once again, Santa did not give me the gift I wanted most: a real, functional lightsaber. I have asked for it for every year since Return of the Jedi first was released. Maybe next year, Santa will give me a lightsaber. I also did not get a Ryshadium
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
AndrewHB @67 Yes, you’re right. Rock as the host. I forgot that Elhokar has to be incognito. :-) It will be too obvious for the people around. And heaven forbid if he runs out of stormlight.
Still, I like the idea of Elhokar as a rogue Lightweaver. He is too confined in the palace. If he mixes with people, then he will be able to relater better. And think of all the scandals he can put on his Roshar TMZ show. Nothing about national security of course. But, something mundane but scandalous by Roshar standards like the stolen kisses between Adolin and Shallan or the Paloma/Serbarial affair. Serbarial is a High Prince after all and he is shacking up with a dark eye. Heaven forbid!!!
And of course, we can make up things too the same way the real TMZ does. LOL I just think it will be fun to make up funny stories about people in Roshar like who is dating who, or worst dressed at the weekly feast. We can name it Hoid’s show without Hoid and of course Hoid will sue for unauthorized use of his name, :-)
Hoid stole the name from someone else. The original Hoid might sue him (if he is still alive).
Since this thread has died over the Holidays, here is an attempt to re-kinked it. We all are fans of the Stormlight Archive, many of us come from the Wheel of Time world. We all appreciated this story to the point where we spend our free time writing theories about it and discussing its characters.
I’d say our reading tastes are similar…
I thus need to ask: What other books do Stormlight Archive fans recommend reading?
I mean, we aren’t getting Oathbringer any time soon and in the mean time, there isn’t much Stormlight Archive exclusively new information being released.. I thus need to bid my time. For those who wonder, I am somewhere half-way through book 4 of Codex Alera which means I’ll be done soon.
@@@@@ 70 Gepeto
How are you liking Codex Alera? I remember a couple of us recommended it to you a few months back, but knowing how you would rate it might give me a slightly better measuring stick for what else I’ve read that you might like. I assume you at least tolerate it since you’ve stuck with it this far, but there’s a pretty big gap between ‘eh, it’s ok’ and ‘spending hours of your day discussing minutiae and the most obscure plot points and theories with people online’….not that we’re crazy or anything….
@@@@@ Gepeto,
Brent Weeks has a cool book series that I’ve enjoyed, the first book is called ” The Broken Eye”. So far there is 3 books of the series published.
I first heard about this book on Brandon Sanderson’s website, it was reviewed by one of the people who works for him. And it definitely has a unique magic system.
@71: I like it well enough. I’d say it is more military oriented than Stormlight and it does employ a rather predictable frame, but predictable does not mean boring. So far each book have had the same format, which is, I must admit, a rather effective one. Butcher writes well, employs various characters and drafts them well: his women are well thought of. He also chose to write characters which are in different phase of their life which is rare in the stories I have previously read.
However, there is no WOW factor to it. I have pretty much guessed how it is going to end and I don’t expect many surprises. None of the characters are grating, but none have the required layers to make them endearing. Each is super resourceful in its own right and each is not wanting on someone else to save or rescue them, none are wallowing into self-pity either, but it just misses the final touch I can’t quite put my hand on. Tavi is a fine character, I like reading about him, but he is no Adolin Kholin… I also rather like the brothers: Maximus (obviously, anyone surprised I would like Max?) and Crassus. I wish they had POV and more time was spent on them. Kitai is a nice take on the kick-ass fighting girl, she does not come across as a cliche. I prefer to her to taciturn Vin, she has heat in her and I like characters who are fiery and expressive. I wished she had a POV, but it may be redundant to Tavi’s as she remains close to him.
All in all, it is a good story, but it has not steered any passion in me the same way Stormlight did. I will not spend hours discussing it on the Internet. I’d recommend people reading it, but there is just something missing… Like a good recipe who would be excellent with just a pinch of salt.
I would definitely give Max his own story arc though… much like Amara. I don’t know if it’ll happen in the last two books, but it seems doubtful.
@72: How about the characters? Anyone interesting?
@73: I know I’m not @72 but since I would have recommended the Lightbringer series anyways…there are a bunch of neat characters. Kip (the main character) is interesting in that he starts the series as obese: while he loses some of the weight as the series progresses, it’s portrayed fairly well and is accurate to what people with endomorph bodies experience (people with naturally stocky builds). Then there’s Kip’s illegitimate father, the current Prism of that world – basically the somewhat-religious/political leader of the primary magic association in the world – he’s much more complex but that’s because he’s spent a lot of time spinning machinations for various things. Let’s see…it’s hard for me to describe a lot of the other characters because after 3 books they’re quite different from how they started, and I don’t want to spoil anything by accident.
A lot of characters come from the Prism’s elite bodyguards (think magical Secret Service), like Karris who is the older female lead and pretty badass. She’s a good example of a character who is aggressive without being hyper-aggressive (a fine line to walk at times). Ironfist is the cool and collected commander, he plays maybe a bit close to the trope but he’s still fun to read.
There’s also the…somewhat “noble-ish” magic types, like the Prism’s father Andross who is…just an awful, awful person, the classic aggressive patriarch dedicated to the idea of his own glory and that of his lineage. There’s also the White, an old lady on the council that basically tries to keep everyone level so stuff doesn’t go pear-shaped – she’s a frail old woman but wise and cunning from said age.
There’s also plenty of younger characters in the cast, but my memory is a bit fuzzy on how they start off – while a lot happens in the books, the younger characters tend to change more (for what I like to call obvious reasons – like growing up).
Also I don’t think it’s as relevant in the first book, but part of the magic system includes people who turn themselves into these light-based crystal monstrosities, which I appreciated.
I always like a good monster/creature design.
@@@@@ 73 Gepeto
If you’re halfway through book 4 there’s still a couple twists coming your way that I believe are a step of from what’s come before.
As far as my favorite character in that particular series? It what have to be a tie between Ehren and Valiar Marcus.
Ehren is short, small and utterly dangerous. Go read his entrance scenes from other characters’ POV’s. Any of them. It’s always “Ehren glided in on silent feet” or “Ehren appeared from the shadows.”
Marcus is hilarious to read. And his character arc is probably my favorite in the series.
On a side note, I can second @@@@@74 FenrirMoridin’s recommendation for the Light-bringer series. The magic system is well done, and the world is well fleshed out overall (in fact I’ve seen Brandon Sanderson himself give the series a thumbs up on his website a couple years back).
So I haven’t guessed everything yet? Well, that’s a refreshing start. So far, I rightly guessed a few things here and there: Tavi’s origin, for instance, was rather obvious early in book 2 or even late in book 1. I didn’t mind it. There is a satisfaction to be had in seeing a plot line you expect come to fruition.
Ehren and Marcus are fine characters though Marcus’s POV isn’t my favorite to read. I enjoyed it mostly because there is Crassus in it… I rather like that kid, more and more. Ehren, I keep expecting him to be more than he seems… There is just something about him I can’t quite put my finger on.
I hope to see the Antillar boys mother again… that story arc has been drop too early for my taste. I love those boys. I love their banter and how Crassus turns out being quite a cool kid after all. We were initially set up for him to turn out as privileged, entitled, spoiled brat, but turns out he is eager to prove himself, trustworthy, competent and quite fond of his older brother. Please give me more brothers team who support each other. I love a good fraternal love story, there are so few of them.
I also forgot to mention Araris… Please someone give this guy some well-deserved happiness.
I’ll check out Lightbringer. For the description, sound like I may like Kip: fat kid who takes his life into his own hands sound interesting. Is it preferable to start with Night Angel? I looks completed…
Night Angel and Lightbringer are independent from each other (different worlds). In Night Angel I would rather read more about the main character’s teacher than the main character himself. I have only read the first Lightbringer book. I liked the ambiguity if Gavin is a hero or a villain.
Yeah, while connected by author Night Angel and Lightbringer are completely separate. Personally I wasn’t much of a fan of Night Angel: it’s just a darker series than I’m really comfortable with so I couldn’t enjoy it as much. I still thought it was worth reading by the end but especially by the middle of book 2 I had to push myself through it. Lightbringer has been an improvement in basically every regard imo, and I think it’s slated to finish this year sometime.
@@@@@ Gepeto
*Reads your comment @@@@@76* Hehehehe….you know what? No. I’m not saying anything. Have fun stewing for the next book and a half wondering what happens.
@@@@@ Several
I wasn’t much of a fan of the Night Angel series. It’s not bad per se, but it very much has that slightly unpolished, ‘author’s first published work’ feel to it. In fact I was say the jump in quality from Night Angel to Lightbringer is unusually high.
Happy New Year Everyone! I’m a bit late to party but better late then never. :)
@Gepeto
I’m glad that you are liking what you’ve read of the Codex Alera. Those are some of my favorite books mostly for the characters rather than the plot. I will agree that if you’ve read a lot of books in the adventure/political fantasy genres the “twists” in the early books are easy to spot. But Butcher is good writer and he manages to make me care a lot about the characters. I think I also love it because it’s one of the few series in which I don’t yell at the characters for being stupid. There are no moments of where I have to stop and wonder why a character acts the way they did. I might not agree with a particular characters motivation but I get it and it’s doesn’t have me wanting to hit them for stupidity.
My favorite character in those books actually is Tavi. I love the fact that he never backs down from challenge or shrinks from what is his responsibility. I don’t remember him ever having a “why me” moment or if he it was thankfully brief. My other favorite character is Gauis Sextus. The whole empire would have fallen apart if he was any less hard willed than he was. He had to have been just a heart broken as his wife but he kept the empire together using what ever tool was available to him. I probably shouldn’t like him as a character as much as I do, given that he’s more manipulative, cold, and pragmatic than other characters that I like but I do. There is also another reason I like Gauis Sextus but I can’t say until you finish book 4.
Basically every character you and wcarter mentioned I love to a slightly lesser degree you could say but I still love them.
@Many
I couldn’t get past the first Night Angel book. I kept yelling at the main character in my head and just didn’t care enough about him. That book was designed to make you want to keep going on to book 2 but I was more than happy to stop when it was over. So while I can’t speak for the Lightbringer series I would not recommend reading the Night Angel books.
For a darker politically motivated fantasy novel I would actually recommend Joe Abercrombie The Blade Itself. Abercrombie does some brilliant work with that series and he’s some nice prose IMO. I listened to the auidobooks for those and there a couple of parts where I had to back track and listen again because the way he phrased certain things was just very beautifully done. A very good word smith.
For right now I’m reading Peter Clines Ex series. I just finished Ex-heroes and I’m going to start Ex-Patriots soon as I can get it. It’s framework is zombies vs. superheroes so it’s not within the normal other world fantasy but it’s a fun read. I’ve some other stuff that Peter Clines has written and I like him as writer. He’s a bit slow to start with but delivers a satisfying story with a griping end sequence. I would recommend reading the book ’14’ by him if your interested. It’s a mystery/sci-fi/horror so might not be everyone’s cup of tea but it quickly made on to the list of books I needed to re-read at some point. (I’ve already re-read it once. It was if anything better the second read through because I knew the slow parts were worth it.)
So I am in for some major reveals? Good to know. So far Tavi has arrived in the Capital, Amara and co are all injured, Isana is a Goddess (I love Isana, there is a small part of me who wishes she isn’t too old to carry another child with Araris… I’d love to see this happening) and Crassus is doing a fair job with the First Aleran.
@80: I have to agree with your review: Butcher’s characters are all good and none are irritating. I don’t scream my head out for any of them, I am not irritated with any of them… but the reverse is I don’t care as much for them as I care for the SA characters. While Codex Alera is a pleasing read it does not rise in me the same passion as Stormlight.
Tavi does have a “Why me?” moment, but it is indeed short lived, a benediction. I like Tavi well enough, but he lacks something… I guess I just simply love characters who appear strong, unmovable, from the outside, but have a hidden vulnerability you don’t get to see at first glance.
I have tried reading the Blade It Self as it did come with high recommendations. I read the first two books, but I haven’t picked up the last one yet. While I agree it has plenty of characters, it is grimdark, but… I just don’t care for any of them. I hate their interaction: Ferro and Logan are particularly difficult to read. Jezal and West are fine, but as soon as Ferro opens her mouth, I want to drop the book. I just didn’t care for any of them.
I dunno what it says of my personal tastes in reading.
I can honestly can say that I am disgusted with many of the characters in the Blade Itself. It’s a bit of an inverse from how I feel about Alera. It’s actually very well written and the end of the third book has a revelation that blew my mind. Me and friend of mine spent a loooong time talking about the whole series when we finished. The last book made me re-look at things that happened earlier in the series in a new light and if I thought I could handle reading those characters again I would re-read it.
It’s also not that the characters were written badly. They were just people who I don’t want to know. If that makes sense. They are well written characters and completely believable for the world they live in. They just aren’t the heroes that I want to read about (mostly because not a single person there would qualify as a hero. In fact I’m not sure a single person there would even qualify as a good person.) It’s kinda amazing but I started reading it hating Glokta, having high hopes for West and Logan. By the end Glokta was my favorite character in the series (because he had the most integrity of any of them- which is saying something because he doesn’t have much) and disillusioned and saddened by West, confused by Logan. Though I like you was annoyed by Ferro as well. I will admit I didn’t like Jezal from the start (I found him annoying and hoped he would be knocked down a peg or five) but he didn’t deserve what happens to him by the end. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. And I’m not even going to talk about not even going to talk about Bayaz. Just no.
Yeah… They are all interesting characters, on paper, but they aren’t people I too actually want to read about. I see little redeeming qualities in them, little evolution. I just feel as if the story will end badly with everybody turning out being just disillusioned bad people.
If this is all grimdark is about, then I don’t enjoy grimdark. I enjoy layers in my characters, but I want to see them evolve, progress, better themselves. There is nothing more grating than reading about a character who remains static or just gets worst.
The Blade Itself would have made an interesting story if the characters had any good in them, instead all I know is they are screwed. I had hopes for Jezal because being young, I had thought he may actually evolve into an interesting characters, but sounds like no. Blah.
Please Mr Brandon, keep on writing SA3.
See, I actually liked Night Angel better than Lightbringer, although I haven’t gotten around to reading Lightbringer past book 1. But I like grim dark so YMMV. Glen Cook and the Black Company books are also favs of mine. I think I’m gonna have make time for more reading this year though. There are some other authors I need to check out less I lose street cred. Abrocromie and Erikson come to mind as top of the list. Rothfuss too, though his last book isn’t out yet.
That the interesting thing. There is only one person who I would call a bad person. The villain of the piece if you will. And it wasn’t who I thought it was at the beginning of my read. Everyone else is just trying to do the best they can in the world and there is character development I would disagree that the characters are stagnate or that they “go bad”. There are character who start bad and by the end you are shown the humanizing aspects of them that make you like them and then there are the character who start good and you are shown how they fall short and how they strive to do better. (Just to be clear I was the one disillusioned with a particular character he wasn’t disillusioned with himself.)
As for Jezal, since you don’t think you are going to read the books so I’ll say that he does grow as a character. And I think it’s shows really good writing that Abercrombie takes a character who I didn’t like and takes the character development so that in the end I feel for him and actually start to admit that he has good qualities and if life was fair good things would happen to him. Still didn’t like him but I felt for him and couldn’t feel happy when the situation was doing that knocking him down a peg that I wanted. It’s hard to explain with out saying exactly what happens to him and how he reacts to it. Abercrombie does the same for Ferro to a degree as well; in fact he does that with all the characters to one degree or another. (In contrast in WoR I don’t like Sadeas and I’m complete okay with him being dead and his manner of death
.
This is how I wish I could have felt about Jezel, I didn’t like him that much but I couldn’t. Why:
And I think the most impressive thing I think Abercrombie does is take what are norms of the fantasy tropes and use them against you. So what you expect to happen gets subverted even as it happens. I don’t think grimdark fiction is for me either because there is only so much of the no win scenarios I can take but I’m glad I read these books. And I do think that if you read these books you should read all three because like I said the third book really changes how I look at the what happens in the first two.There are layers to the story that I don’t think you can even guess at until you read the last book. You could argue that the character development is slight but the story development is amazingly done and the wordsmithing that he does is some of the best I’ve read.
Though I understand if having to deal with these characters is just too much. They aren’t good people often times and often times it’s hard to admit when they do the good things because they seem to be hampered by their own world that seems to push them to doing bad things. Which they are totally okay with. Glotka tortures people for a living and I wouldn’t count him a good person but it’s hard to count him as bad person either after I finished the books. He’s just the person I liked the most when I finished the books.
I enjoy Abercrombie a lot mostly in spite of not being a huge fan of grimdark stories: he has this visceral, cinematic writing style that just really works.
That said I think he works better in single books: I prefer the three follow-up novels to the First Law trilogy more than the First Law trilogy itself (each book is stand-alone though they share First Law’s universe and have a few character cameos and such).
Logen was always my favorite, mostly because I’m a sucker for the sheer spectacle of brutality that is the Bloody-Nine unleashed, although also props for him being probably the most outwardly archetypal character but written in a way that’s pretty separate from any other berserker character I can think of off-hand.
If not for Alloy of Law, Red Country would be hands down my favorite fantasy western.
I’m very late to the party – I first read Stormlight a few months ago and just started looking at the WoR reread this week. But I’m hoping that perhaps I can join in with your crazy discussions for the last quarter or so of the book.
Re: Shallan’s unique skill set – Out of all the Sanderson heroines I’ve read, Shallan is the only one I really connect with. Vin, Sarene, Siri, &c are fun to read about, but I don’t have nearly the same emotional investment in them as I do with Shallan. I think a large part of this is, indeed, her particular mixture of skills and personality. It’s easy as writers, readers, and just human beings in general to characterize people as either cold and logical or emotional and artistic. It takes skill to write a Shallan and combine these traits realistically enough to resonate with someone like me, who also sees both tendencies in herself. The more clear-cut Kaladin is easy to root for, but characters with Shallan’s balance are ultimately more inspiring to me and, perhaps, more memorable. (Hard to say at this point.)
I would be somewhat disappointed if Shallan learns how to fight and becomes an Action Girl. After all, per Sanderson’s Laws limitations are more interesting than powers. If Shallan has to solve problems with only her brains, creativity and magic, the story is much more interesting to me than if she can just remove those problems with violence. No matter how cool that violence is, as I must admit that watching Shallan kick butt with Shards, Lightweaving, and Jasnah-style Soulcasting would have a certain appeal too. Additionally, we already have quite a few main characters around who are very physically adept; it adds depth and balance to have Shallan complement those characters with her skills rather than join them.
@19 On the goals of the Ghostbloods – I found this WoB interesting (btw, could anyone elucidate me on how to link to a specific entry on a Theoryland page?)
—
Macen
When Hoid was talking to Dalinar, he seemed to expect that Dalinar had heard of Adonalsium. Why would he think that?
Brandon Sanderson
He thought that Dalinar was part of some of the secret societies on Roshar. And he had thought his way into thinking Dalinar was part of them and that was how Dalinar was knowing certain things. Which he really wasn’t he was getting them from the storms and things like this. […]
—
So then Hoid thinks some of the secret societies on Roshar know of Adonalsium. The Ghostbloods seem the most Cosmere-aware of the societies we’ve come across so far, so they would be the most likely to be familiar with Adonalsium. The question is, how? Why? Any thoughts…?
I would love to see Mraize tell Shallan about the Cosmere. Especially if Shallan gets to be a worldhopper. No, what would be even better would be if Hoid told Shallan some of these secrets, and then she can run around visiting worlds with Hoid! Shallan and Hoid, the snarky Lightweavers, traversing the universe. That would be great fun.
@58 On upcoming Sanderson books: Definitely looking forward to The Dark Talent the most. Alcatraz was my first Sanderson, and I’ve had to wait longer for book 5 than any other Sanderson books…so far. Plus, I expect it to be brilliant now that he’s had a ~6 year hiatus from Alcatraz filled with WoT and Stormlight to develop his writing. After that is Oathbringer, naturally, and then probably Bands of Mourning – I hear that there will be worldhoppers and other juicy Cosmere stuff, and hopefully lots of Steris!
I’m probably the least interested in his new YA project, since I’ve been underwhelmed with his other YA work. Steelheart was fun but not really my genre. The Rithmatist had great magic and fun worldbuilding, but the characters and plot lacked sparkle for me. (After all, chalk does rather lack sparkle compared to metal, gemstones, glass, &c…)
sheesania @87 – Welcome! Join right in and have fun. :)
Re: Shallan… I don’t actually know what Brandon has planned for her, but so far he’s set her up as a bit of a klutz, tripping over her own feet and stuff. This could go two ways: one, the effect of holding Stormlight could give her better coordination a la burning pewter. Or (and this is my preference) she could continue to be a klutz so that she doesn’t end up as a super-skilled fighter; she can summon her Blade when she really needs him to protect herself, but her primary skill set is the Lightweaving.
Also: You are going to LOVE The Bands of Mourning. This I Foretell. :)
@87: Welcome!
Shallan – like Wetlandernw, I hope she doesn’t become a fighter. All of Voirn culture is about “fighters are the best calling!” Yet the KR had many jobs, even if they all did have a “sword / spren” So I want some key people to remain non-fighters to “fight” that poision of Vorin culture.
Re: Book suggestions. I always recommend Lois McMaster Bujold. Except her Sharing Knife series. Did not care for that one much.
Chalion is more fantasy based.
Vorkosgain Universe – I recommend reading in internal chronological order, but anything before Mirror Dance can be read in any order you wish. At one point, if you bought the hardback of Cyroburn, it had a CD with all the other books as eBooks included.
Re: Lightbringer: @84: give book 2 shot. I liked book 2 & 3 much more than book 1. Becomes better with returning to the school. But yes, there are a few flaw with Weeks writing.
I’m glad that sheesania and wetlandernw brought these comments back to WOR and the Stormlight Archive subject. Greetings to sheesania. I assume that you realize that Wetlandernw is Alice Arneson, the author of the Reread. I agree with your assessment and hopes for the Shallan character. She will be needed in the fight against the Voidbringers, but her abilities work best in conjunction with others such as Kaladin and possibly Adolin who seem slated to do the much of the actual combat. Sanderson writes his main characters with flaws. Dalinar has had a violent past, Adolin can be superficial, Kaladin has struggled with depressive moods, and Shallan has had some issues with ethics such as stealing Jasnah’s soulcaster and forcing Kaladin to surrender his boots. Their good points, however, more than compensate for their failings. Shallan’s optimistic outlook is particularly remarkable given her traumatic past.
Re other genre books
– hell yes to Bujold
– Robin Hobb is a favorite, especially the various Fitz and Fool books.
– I’m fully into Rothfuss and his Kingkiller Chronicles – GRRM-like anticipation for the third and final book.
– Give thought to Daniel Abraham – Dagger and Coin series is lots of fun, as is his co-authored sci-fi series The Expanse (now a television show on Syfy).
Re: Shallan
I think it’s been shown with Kaladin and Lift that stormlight does have similar properties to pewter burning. Reflexes are sharpened and they don’t get tried as quickly. But even with that I don’t think Shallan will ever be a fighter, it just doesn’t fit with her personailty. He go to reaction in a situation is not to punch something but to find some other solution. She’d probably lightweave distractions so that the other people can get in the good punches. I do want to see Adolin or someone teaching Shallan the basics of this how you use a sword just in case she ever needs it though. Also that would be a cute scene.
@RobMRobM
Daniel Abraham is a new author to me. I’ll have to look that one up. Thanks.
This was something I was going to post about when the next chapter in the re-read came out but since we’re on-topic again: right now (chapter 64), who does Shallan hate most in the world? I’d say Tvlakv the slave trader. I’d say this is still the same by the end of the book. Maybe she’ll hate Amaram more when she has a better idea of what he’s done. I would say that she considers Tvlakv to be “evil” – she never tries to get along with him or attempts to put him in a better light and as soon as she gets the chance she parts ways. When she takes his slaves she does it quite aggressively, even abusing her status as a Lighteyed woman. Even though she gets bolder in general through the book I don’t think she’s ever quite so aggressive. Sympathy for the slaves probably added to her motivation but even still her actions are very atypical for her… at least in my mind.
Of the protagonists I’d say she’s the least likely to use “force” to solve problems (I’m not counting Hoid/Wit as a protagonist in this series, at least not yet) – so I agree that she isn’t likely to turn into “action girl”. She’s certainly “make things happen girl” though. Brandon has talked about pushing the envelope on the general concept of “lightweaving” type abilities so I’m expecting this to continue. Currently with her abilities she’s been “adding” layers but can she “remove” stuff too – ie make things invisible? Imagine if she could make Shardplate invisible while wearing it – that stuff could turn even someone unskilled in combat like Shallan into a deadly weapon while making her very hard to hurt, so long as she’s facing “normal” people. Useful for high risk situations for sure – I expect that at some point she’ll end up fighting the Ghostbloods when all else fails.
Enjoying those book suggestions btw :)
Thanks for the welcomes, everyone!!
@93 Huh. My first instinct is to think that Tvlakv couldn’t possibly be the person that Shallan hates most, but considering it further, I have trouble thinking of many people who Shallan actually does hate. I would still tend to say that she hates Amaram more, though. Tvlakv she finds despicable, slimy, icky – thoroughly distasteful. Amaram, though, she has much deeper problems with. He has a very good reputation and is supposed to be leading the KR, but Shallan believes he killed Helaran, is trying to return the Voidbringers, and refused to help Adolin when he was trapped in the duel with four Shardbearers. By the end of the book she will also know that he was responsible for Kaladin’s fall from grace and perhaps that he cheated Dalinar out of a Shardblade. Those are much bigger allegations, and much more personal to Shallan, than any of the nasty things Tvlakv did. I think the difference is between a man who disgusts her that she had power over, and a man she truly hates that she doesn’t have power over.
But other than Amaram and Tvlakv, I have trouble thinking of anybody that Shallan actively hates. I’m a bit surprised that she doesn’t harbor more resentment against the Ghostbloods, seeing as they were deeply involved in her family’s downfall, killed Jasnah (so far as she knows), intimidate and threaten her, and are up to something fishy. But she focuses on her current goal of infiltrating them and figuring out what they’re doing. Indeed, she even enjoys the praise she gets from Mraize and Iyatil. I guess in the end, even though she’s been through a lot in her life and has seen quite a bit of ill treatment, she doesn’t tend to focus on hating the people involved. Kaladin, on the other hand, is quick to blame others for his problems. (My sister and I joke that Kaladin blames everything on either himself or the lighteyes, so now that he’s lighteyed, he can just always blame himself!)
Yup, it takes a lot for Shallan to hate someone. There’s not many people who would express sympathy for chasamfiends. I think she tries to avoid negative emotions.
Shallan is definitely angry at Amaram at this point. She also thinks to herself that she has a “smouldering loathing” rather than “intense hatred” – it looks like that initially her hatred did spike but then cooled down quickly and keeps on cooling from what we see. We don’t see her discover much about Amaram that isn’t public though. I don’t think she knew about his refusal to help Adolin, for example. We don’t see her discover what Amaram really did to Kaladin – if she did then she would know it was Kaladin who killed her brother not Amaram. So I suspect she doesn’t find out until after Kaladin returns home.
It’s curious – Shallan sort-of rationalises away her hatred for Amaram… but if she knew everything she would probably see him as evil but it would be less personal. As a follow-up, Shallan’s reaction to Amaram over time probably means that she’ll be able to forgive Kaladin for killing her brother.
@92 – follow up re Daniel Abraham. Very thoughtful, original and prolific author – well worth reading. First key work is Long Price Quartet, a four book series of an odd Asian influenced culture with one major fantasy element – that scholars in one nation can create detailed longform poems that can create and keep in thrall god-like beings but the poems are hard to do correctly and the god has to have a unique power that hasn’t been invoked before. Very cool stuff. Second key fantasy work is Dagger and Coin, an ongoing series about a fantasy world with multiple races (humans being one of them), a scary set of evil priests seeking to take over the world, lots of political struggles and wars, and the potential for intelligent dragons. Nice original world with a fair number of trope busting elements (i.e., a main character is a teenaged banking prodigy). Third is the hard sci-fi series The Expanse co-written with Ty Franks until the pen name James S. A Corey. Five books so far plus some shorter works – first one is Leviathan Wakes. Currently a TV show on Syfy network. Finally, he is a contributor to the Wild Cards series edited by George Martin and others.
@95 Lol at Shallan sympathizing with chasmfiends. Anyways, as far as I understood she did hold Amaram’s inaction against him: “Why didn’t anyone else help him? She glared across at the gathered Alethi lighteyes, including Highlord Amaram, the supposed Knight Radiant. Bastard.” (ch 57) But you could read it either way. Also, while she doesn’t know the whole story about what happened between Amaram and Kaladin, he does say to her “Amaram betrayed me. He made me a slave for knowing the truth, that he’d killed my men in his lust to get a Shardblade.” (ch 74) But it doesn’t make much of a difference at this point. We’ll have to see if her feelings about Amaram cause more problems later on…
Re: how Shallan will respond to learning that Kaladin killed Helaran: I would also be surprised if she makes a big deal out of this, especially if she understands the circumstances. But then, we really don’t know that much about her relationship with Helaran. She obviously looks up to him and considers him very brave, but we’ve seen little of their actual interaction. There’s more going on there than we know right now.
Ah, I had forgotten about that bit in ch 57, thanks. It’s just as well for Kaladin that he had gotten into the habit of talking circumspectly about his slave origins – though I expect Shallan to be able to forgive Kaladin I’d still expect her to feel a momentary spike of anger.
It’s hard to judge Helaran’s real character but certainly Shallan believed in him… not that she had many good examples to choose from. It was probably hard for her to believe that he really had abandoned them – though Shallan sort of does the same thing at the end of tWoK.
PS Have you seen this bit of art that Inkthinker created: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/13834-stormlight-archive-joke-again/?p=208846
So easy to imagine Shallan doing that :D
Ha! I don’t think I had seen that before. Thanks for sharing.
I think Shallan has such sympathy for “monsters” because:
1) She thinks of herself as one – murderer
2) She did love her father, even as he went crazy. So another “monster” in her life.
Couldn’t leave the hunny just hanging. :-D